Oil consumption cut in half after 'solvent' flush?

[Reishi]

I agree. This [censored] gets old real fast. I am using Arx right now and haven't notice any difference but I am only 200 miles into the clean phase so that is expected. The only reason that I tried it was because it was pushed so hard here but it really comes off a bit strong.

We can't even have a post about friction modifiers or an other oil additives without being stormed by the Arx guys telling everyone that everything else is just [censored]. Or we get some cryptic post from Frank that doesn't make any sense.

I hope Arx works as good as everyone claims it does but I would still like to be able to talk about other additives too.

Otherwise, they should just remove the Oil Additives forum and replace it with Arx forum.

 

[virginoil]

"Otherwise, they should just remove the Oil Additives forum and replace it with Arx forum."

Good idea likewise a few years ago there so many posts in the PCMO section about GC, a separate thread was created for GC only.

It is recommended that the Moderators create a separate ARX sub forum under Oil Additives. In that way other engine cleaners can be discussed by those wishing to discuss the main thrust of the thread.

I understand ARX is a forum supporter and a highly valued and respected one, probably by all. Sometimes it gets just a little over the top when (ARX) hijacks a topic a little too much (even if it is for the right intentions).

 

[BrianWC]

I don't think it was a hi-jacking. The topic was posted about a solvent flush providing great results where arx apparently didn't give the same result. A lot of folks who post on here regularly have used arx and seen it work well and wanted to get to the bottom of it.

Instead of going on and on, why can't we go back to that discussion? I'm as curious as anyone else!

 

[dargo]

It is not hi-jacking but just looked at a few posts from certain people pushing about anti-solvents time and time again...Same people. Can't just let it go.

Again this thread needs to get back on track but the issues are very valid about pusing anti-solvents here and I think many are tired of it (myself included).

If the solvants worked better great and leave it at that.

 

[John K]

A little off topic, but I don't like it when a dealer adds an additive to the oil and puts an additional charge on the bill. I've seen it with BG and others. When a dealer does it I think they are responding to some salesman selling them the product as an additional profit maker. So many people have posted some dealer's comment or use of a cheap bulk oil, sometimes not following the mfr's specifications. Dealers are not a very good source of oil info imho.....

 

[virginoil]

Hi

I just did a search on Revive and I noticed that Schrader Canada makes it. The ACDelco crankcase cleaner is also made by the Schrader Canada, refer to MSDS sheet from the ACDelco Website.

ACDelco MSDS Data
http://www.acdelco.com.au/Assets/CrankcaseClean - Safety.pdf

 

[va3ux]

Reminds me that I was going try to find out exactly what is in the Revive product. There were no MSDS specifically for it that last time I was on their website but they (Schrader) make similarly named products under different brand labels. The one that I found was all Stoddard Solvent, just like your AC Delco example, so I suspect that's largely what the Revive product is.

Schrader Canada

Here's the MSDS for the Engine Flush product they make under the Titan name. Even more robust than the AC Delco product :

'Titan' Engine Flush

The Revive labelled products appear to made for Canadian Tire and and it's affiliate, The Parts Source. Those are the only places I see the Revive Products.

 

[BrianWC]

Isn't "Stoddard Solvent" the main ingredient in MMO?

 

[BrianWC]

Originally Posted By: dargo


If the solvants worked better great and leave it at that.


My point is I don't think they work great.

 

[Pablo]

Dudes - solvent flushes have their place. Solvent flushes will not destroy your engine if used properly.

I have used AutoRX on beater resto jobs - and it really has worked. Other clean engine cars, not so much (i.e. it doesn't do much of anything for my cars that started life on Amsoil). I recommend AutoRx before Amsoil ALL THE STINKING TIME!! Why? Because it does clean.

This said - there is a certain fear factor thrown out there about solvent flushes, for obvious reasons - and SOME of those reason are indeed marketing related.

I wrote this is 2003 and it still applies today:

http://pws.cablespeed.com/~pablomail//newoilflush.htm

 

[glennc]

Maybe the chemists on the board will be able to answer this. A-RX is a low volume treatment that if I understand correctly is particularly good at cleaning deposits from metal by fighting for space on the metal and chemically busting the deposits away from those metal surfaces. If that is a reasonable understanding then it seems like it is probably the best solution for low-volume hard deposits such as one would find behind rings and possibly in and around bearings and so on.

Solvents are usually used in much higher volumes and as I understand them they are designed to dissolve the deposits directly, not by any action on the metal surfaces. They chemically break the deposits into molecular pieces that the oil can then disperse and encapsulate and which then get removed along with the oil. They might work to some degree on hard deposits but are not in the engine long enough to do much with them.

If that is somewhere near the truth, then:

- A-RX will work best on hard deposits attached to metal and present in low volumes.

- Solvent flushes will work best to clean large volumes of sludge or other soft deposits that can then be drained with the oil.

- A-RX would do little to clean substantial volumes of sludge because they are not aggressively attached to the metal surfaces to begin with.

- Solvent flushes will do little to clean hard deposits in "working" areas of the engine because of the time available for them to act and because their chemistry is not as effective for that purpose.

What say the experts?

 

[va3ux]

Originally Posted By: BrianWC
Isn't "Stoddard Solvent" the main ingredient in MMO?


Don't know about MMO Brian, but Stoddard Solvent is the main ingredient is quite a few other additives. I believe many of the fuel injector cleaner additives use Stoddard solvent.

 

[dargo]

Originally Posted By: BrianWC

My point is I don't think they work great.

Great, LOL but about 5 people (who are mods too on other forums) need to stop pushing another product. I like solvents and they have their place along with other items. People who say they are "killers" need to re-think their posts. Saying a general comment like that is poor business and just stupid.

I have used "solvents" and work great and they are low-cost....

Like the 3rd time, solvents work and some people like them and leave it at that...pushing other products loses future sales here.

 

[BrianWC]

Lol, I have no stake of any kind in arx. I've put maybe 8 posts on that board. Feel free to look up my old posts under the name bkrell on here. I wasn't thrilled about arx until I used all the different solvents and methods to try snd clean. I've never seen a solvent clean up my deposits worth a flip. That's all I'm saying. So this notion that solvent flushes are the magical and quick way to a clean every engine are as wrong headed as anything else. I'm not giving commercials, just my own experience. If the "flushes are better" crowd seems to have a problem with that then I can't help it.

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: virginoil

Why Toyota is not buying the products in the USA / CANADA is a good question, I think the USA BITOG ARX promoters should answer. Why ARX is not the preferred engine flush (regardless of its higher cost) with the USA automotive repair industry ?


I don't know why any car makers do some of the things they do. I think a lot of it is economics, and the potential effect of public opinion on their bottom line, about what sort of products they use. I dunno.

I don't know much, as is very obvious.

As for why Toyota prefers solvents for engine flush, well since ARX is not an engine flush but metal cleaner, maybe that is why.

I think, if I wanted to do an engine flush, I would add to my existing oil some Redline and a touch of MMO, and/or some of Amsoil's PAO UATF. I felt safest, lats time I wanted to flush crud out, by doing several very short OCIs back to back with Valvoline.

Sorry about having, in the past, extolled ARX too much regarding this issue. I was just so stoked about it having actually worked for me so well. I will really try to watch that.

Thanks for listening to my :2cents: worth.

 

[Spitty]

Thinking about residual solvents in an engine, if you add 500ml (a Pint) of solvant flush to an engine with 4 Liters of oil, the solvent content would be 20%. After the flush treatment you drain the oil, but 500 ml of oil/solvent gets left behind in hollows, nooks and crannies. You now add 4 Liters of fresh oil, and (assuming there is no reduction of solvent due to evaporation) the solvent content of the 'New' oil is now 2.5%
By the second oil change, again assuming there is no reduction of solvant volatiles, we are down to somthing like .02%.
I guess you could say the 'solvant NEVER goes away' but it sure comes close!


I always thought that Oilgal would do a good job as a PR person for Arx, she writes well, is knowledgeable and normally comes across in a concise, non combative way.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
A-RX will work best on hard deposits attached to metal and present in low volumes.


I don't see this as being exclusively true. It should work as well as it will work on any deposit.

Quote:
- Solvent flushes will work best to clean large volumes of sludge or other soft deposits that can then be drained with the oil.


Same deal.

Quote:
- A-RX would do little to clean substantial volumes of sludge because they are not aggressively attached to the metal surfaces to begin with.


I don't see this as being true either.

I could reword that to say:

You may use stronger solvent type flushes since if they dislodge massive amounts of solids, you're draining it in a few minutes anyway ..so, as long as you don't break loose any larger formations to the point of blockage of the sump screen or drainback holes, you can get away with it.

I would tend to agree that "tar-like" deposits would probably be best served by more dwell time at temperature and would probably be much less effected with a short duration solvent flush. Auto-Rx takes longer to remove these formations too. Softer deposit formation ...faster removal

What you're missing in your comparisons is that you can't use Auto-Rx in a 5 minute flush and you can't use a solvent over a 3k OCI. Neither has any business in the other's realm of functionality. The boxer cannot wrestle. The wrestler cannot box.


I'm also up against some practical limitations too. While I do recommend Auto-Rx to many, how am I to tell someone to go two more oil changes and up to 6k miles before doing an extended drain on my Amsoil products if I feel the engine is too dirty? Sludge monster? I don't offer Amsoil as a (potential) sacrificial remedy for these engines. I DO send them to Frank first since I know that a solvent flush isn't likely to correct the existing condition ..and that while some Amsoil products may function well with a clean engine, they won't typically correct conditions already present.

 

[glennc]

I would think as others have mentioned that the solvents would quickly vaporize in use and there would be little or nothing left after the first couple of drives on the replacement oil.

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: Spitty

I always thought that Oilgal would do a good job as a PR person for Arx, she writes well, is knowledgeable and normally comes across in a concise, non combative way.


Why thank you spitty. I am unqualified however. I can think of, at least three or four, other people here, who are far better qualified.

 

[Craftsman]

Originally Posted By: Spitty
Thinking about residual solvents in an engine, if you add 500ml (a Pint) of solvant flush to an engine with 4 Liters of oil, the solvent content would be 20%. After the flush treatment you drain the oil, but 500 ml of oil/solvent gets left behind in hollows, nooks and crannies. You now add 4 Liters of fresh oil, and (assuming there is no reduction of solvent due to evaporation) the solvent content of the 'New' oil is now 2.5%
By the second oil change, again assuming there is no reduction of solvant volatiles, we are down to somthing like .02%.
I guess you could say the 'solvant NEVER goes away' but it sure comes close!


Two big issues that have always been brought up in using solvents (either the flushes or the additives) is that they are:

1. they diluent the oil so that more wear MAY occur;
2. They flash at high temperatures.

What happens if you use a solvent flush in low concentrations over a period of time?

As Spitty pointed out, a pint of solvent will be 20% of the crankcase (given that it holds 4L). Most people will get a little nervous over a 20% thinning of oil. And of course, as the engine gets warm, how much of it flashes away through the PCV before it gets to dissolve anything?

I'm thinking that if we use 1/5 as much and dose it 5 times before the OC we could combat the two issues listed above. At 4% solvent content, you can't say that there was a great change in the ability of the oil to do it's job. Also, with 5 doses, there is a better chance for the solvent to do it's job over a longer period of time. Each time you dose the engine, the solvent will dissolve a bit more "stuff" but won't dissolve large chunks that everyone is afraid of happening.

Think of it as a 500 mile treatment - one small dose of solvent per 100 miles. Why a 100 miles? No real reason - kind of pulled that number out of thin air. However, I do believe that 100 miles is enough to get the engine hot and flash off most if not all of the solvent leaving the "stuff" in the oil.

In other words, baby steps....