Oil and MPG

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First I'll give a little background. My car is a 2011 Sonata with a manual transmission and I am a stickler for fuel economy. I have an Ultra-gauge and keep meticulous records on OCI mpg, tank mpg and trip mpg. Every trip to and from work I collect data on the temp, baro, map, intake temp, coolant temp, oil temp, wind direction, miles and fuel used. I drive the same route to and from work to keep it as consistent as possible.

I have used M1 5w20 and 10w30, VV5w20, RP5w20, PU5w20/10w30, PYB10w30 and currently PYB5w20.

My record tank with anything other than PYB was 41.25 mpg and that was pretty much all highway. Then last spring I used PYB10w30 and figured I might see a drop in MPG and at first I could not see a difference. Then on the second tank (guessing the oil had sheared some in hindsight) I started seeing all my records fall, in combined driving. Highest miles per tank, most tanks in a row (at 43.5 mpg) and the highest mpg by OCI by 2.7 mpg.

Last September, figuring the heavier oil did not hurt, I did a 50/50 mixture of PU5w20 and 10w30. Immediately I saw my MPG plummet to a high of 40.8 and a low of 38.8 mpg.
Average over that OCI was 40.1 vs 42.8 with the PYB10w30.

For this OCI I decided to try the PYB 5w20 and it quickly made a difference.
My data says my average with the PU was 38.5 mpg on a day with temps ranging from 50-59f and the last couple of weeks with similar temps with the PYB my average is back up to 42 mpg.

I have data points from 25f up to 90f and in the past year you can tell which oil is used when just from how much better it is. Upon putting the PU in and taking the hit on mpg, I initially thought it was just the onset of cooler temps but that was not the case at all according to the data.

Now, I posted on a thread in which the OP, Tribosessive I think is his user name, had posted his claims on 10.3% higher mpg with Eneos 0w20 and many, including yours truly, pretty much said he was full of it.
I was going to PM him to offer an apology but he doesn't accept them, so, Tribo, I'm sorry for my participation in saying your results weren't possible.

My unintentional results were not due to his challenge, but now I can see that it's possible.
 
Why are you using 5W-20 instead of 0W-20? Give Toyota 0W-20 SN (made by ExxonMobil) a try. You will definitely see an improvement over PYB 5W-20 SN, especially when the oil gets used. It will also offer better protection than PYB.

I used both Toyota 0W-20 SN and PYB 5W-20 SN and I have recent UOAs on them posted here. With Toyota 0W-20 SN, I not only see an MPG improvement but also a much-smoother running engine. You should definitely take the advantage of the far superior cold-engine protection and better fuel economy of these ultra-high-viscosity-index oils.
 
Standup post and I'll add that although I'm no statistics major I did take several stat courses in college and do a bit of statistical analysis in my work and you've been thorough.

I've also tracked my vehicles mileage in a basic fashion for years and I've concluded there are just too many variables for regular guys driving day-to-day to determine if oil affects MPG.

That being said, zero weight SN GF5 oils obviously are part of major manufacturers overall strategy to up their fleet MPG so I'd conclude it's no fallacy that oil can contribute. They have the means to do much more controlled testing.
 
Originally Posted By: 63Marauder
You're boring. Get a life

Awesome post. Nominate this for post of the year.

Anyways. OP.
thanks for posting. I like reading people's experiences and you took the time to look at all possible variables,which is pretty cool actually.
Ignore the post above. I don't know why he is even here since the bulk of what we discuss is this "boring" stuff.
I disagree with gohkan. At shorter intervals there is no evidence that a syn provides better protection. Extended intervals perhaps. Lets remember Dnewton is proving that conventionals are not spent at extended intervals,so even that point can be argued.
And honestly. If you are getting better mileage that points to less friction to me,which obviously translates to less wear,so if PYB 10w30 got you your best mileage that tells me it also means it contributed to less wear.
These syn pushers make me laugh. Unless your using a group 4 or 5 its not really a syn,so the truth of the matter is most s syns aren't,which is why they don't perform any better than conventional oils at shorter intervals.
 
Is there a switch from winter to summer fuel ongoing in your neck of the woods? As for your data, it would be certainly hard to say you're not collecting enough.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Is there a switch from winter to summer fuel ongoing in your neck of the woods? As for your data, it would be certainly hard to say you're not collecting enough.
wink.gif



I fill at the same station, same pump, same gas, E-0 90 octane, of which I don't know if 'pure' gas gets the summer/winter treatments.
 
Originally Posted By: 63Marauder
You're boring. Get a life


Nice. See you in a few weeks if you want to follow the rules...
 
Mind if I ask why you're using 90 octane - is it the only option for E0 fuel? The 2.0T doesn't offer a MT option, right?

Great info and great data, btw. Winter blends may account for your drop, if they do switch over in GA.
 
Originally Posted By: 63Marauder
You're boring. Get a life


Really? Wow. Why are you even on this site?

Ignoring him, this is an interesting bit of info that I and many here will appreciate since the majority of members are gearheads who appreciate our cars/trucks/motorcycles and maintain them as best we can and actually like new info on oils and their benefits. So thank you for the post.
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Mind if I ask why you're using 90 octane - is it the only option for E0 fuel? The 2.0T doesn't offer a MT option, right?

Great info and great data, btw. Winter blends may account for your drop, if they do switch over in GA.


I'd use 87 E0 if anyone had it, only 90 can be found close by. Mine is the 2.4 with the manual trans.
 
I am curious how a Sonata with a conventional engine and manual transmission gets 43.5 MPG. Its EPA estimates are 28 combined, 24 city, and 35 highway.

I am guessing that the only reason why you're seeing such very high MPG values is that you're doing a lot of long-distance driving at medium speeds (around 50 MPH) in rural highways.

At such driving conditions, your MPG will be very high but also all over the place because you get a very sharp maximum when the engine and vehicle speeds are optimal and the MPG drops sharply around that maximum.

Therefore, I wouldn't draw too much conclusion from these MPG values. You're mostly seeing random effects while you drive around the sharp optimal-MPG peak of your car.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I am curious how a Sonata with a conventional engine and manual transmission gets 43.5 MPG. Its EPA estimates are 28 combined, 24 city, and 35 highway.

I am guessing that the only reason why you're seeing such very high MPG values is that you're doing a lot of long-distance driving at medium speeds (around 50 MPH) in rural highways.

At such driving conditions, your MPG will be very high but also all over the place because you get a very sharp maximum when the engine and vehicle speeds are optimal and the MPG drops sharply around that maximum.

Therefore, I wouldn't draw too much conclusion from these MPG values. You're mostly seeing random effects while you drive around the sharp optimal-MPG peak of your car.


My commute to work is 48.7 miles and 11 of those are not highway, but in town miles.
My short trips usally see 36-37 mpg and on rural back roads where the average speed is between 40-50 mph I have had trips over 48 mpg. Off the highway where speeds are lower and aero drag is reduced, neutral is the gear I use most. Coasting at 50 mph with a gph rate of .2 nets 250 mpg.

Oh, and for your curiousity visit this site, ecomodder.com
Many there get 50%+ over there epa rating. One guy gets 40+ out of his crew cab Dodge diesel and makes us car drivers look like chumps.

Learn to drive smarter and you will save money on fuel, heck, the average person on fuelly.com with a car like mine nets 24-25 mpg! In 2.5 years I have made 3 car payments for free based on my % off fuel saved over the epa rating.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Sonataman
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I am curious how a Sonata with a conventional engine and manual transmission gets 43.5 MPG. Its EPA estimates are 28 combined, 24 city, and 35 highway.

I am guessing that the only reason why you're seeing such very high MPG values is that you're doing a lot of long-distance driving at medium speeds (around 50 MPH) in rural highways.

At such driving conditions, your MPG will be very high but also all over the place because you get a very sharp maximum when the engine and vehicle speeds are optimal and the MPG drops sharply around that maximum.

Therefore, I wouldn't draw too much conclusion from these MPG values. You're mostly seeing random effects while you drive around the sharp optimal-MPG peak of your car.


My commute to work is 48.7 miles and 11 of those are not highway, but in town miles.
My short trips usally see 36-37 mpg and on rural back roads where the average speed is between 40-50 mph I have had trips over 48 mpg. Off the highway where speeds are lower and aero drag is reduced, neutral is the gear I use most. Coasting at 50 mph with a gph rate of .2 nets 250 mpg.

Oh, and for your curiousity visit this site, ecomodder.com
Many there get 50%+ over there epa rating. One guy gets 40+ out of his crew cab Dodge diesel and makes us car drivers look like chumps.

Learn to drive smarter and you will save money on fuel, heck, the average person on fuelly.com with a car like mine nets 24-25 mpg! In 2.5 years I have made 3 car payments for free based on my % off fuel saved over the epa rating.

I am not questioning your MPG values. You do seem to be very meticulous about measuring them.

I was pointing out that you cannot draw any conclusion about the effect of oil on MPG from these values. You are a hypermiler and fortunate that you do a lot of 40 - 55 MPH driving. You do make great MPG gains by optimizing your driving. However, these great MPG gains also mean great MPG fluctuations around your average MPG values. One day you may get 50 MPG but the next day you may get 40 MPG because you did something slightly less optimal in your driving. That's why it's impossible to reach any conclusion on the slight effects of oil on MPG while your values typically fluctuate +/- 5 MPG or perhaps more as a result of your driving style, which is of course very nice and environmentally conscious. However, is it a nice field-test method for MPG benefits of an oil? Unfortunately, not at all.
 
Originally Posted By: Sonataman
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
This is going to be interesting on so many fronts. OP not only got better gas mileage on thicker oil, but he did it with thicker, inferior dino juice.

I'm definitely subscribing.


Check out this link. Seems for dino to pass the standard it had to beat a pao syn.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils

Great link! One of the better ones I have encountered here on BITOG.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Sonataman
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I am curious how a Sonata with a conventional engine and manual transmission gets 43.5 MPG. Its EPA estimates are 28 combined, 24 city, and 35 highway.

I am guessing that the only reason why you're seeing such very high MPG values is that you're doing a lot of long-distance driving at medium speeds (around 50 MPH) in rural highways.

At such driving conditions, your MPG will be very high but also all over the place because you get a very sharp maximum when the engine and vehicle speeds are optimal and the MPG drops sharply around that maximum.

Therefore, I wouldn't draw too much conclusion from these MPG values. You're mostly seeing random effects while you drive around the sharp optimal-MPG peak of your car.


My commute to work is 48.7 miles and 11 of those are not highway, but in town miles.
My short trips usally see 36-37 mpg and on rural back roads where the average speed is between 40-50 mph I have had trips over 48 mpg. Off the highway where speeds are lower and aero drag is reduced, neutral is the gear I use most. Coasting at 50 mph with a gph rate of .2 nets 250 mpg.

Oh, and for your curiousity visit this site, ecomodder.com
Many there get 50%+ over there epa rating. One guy gets 40+ out of his crew cab Dodge diesel and makes us car drivers look like chumps.

Learn to drive smarter and you will save money on fuel, heck, the average person on fuelly.com with a car like mine nets 24-25 mpg! In 2.5 years I have made 3 car payments for free based on my % off fuel saved over the epa rating.

I am not questioning your MPG values. You do seem to be very meticulous about measuring them.

I was pointing out that you cannot draw any conclusion about the effect of oil on MPG from these values. You are a hypermiler and fortunate that you do a lot of 40 - 55 MPH driving. You do make great MPG gains by optimizing your driving. However, these great MPG gains also mean great MPG fluctuations around your average MPG values. One day you may get 50 MPG but the next day you may get 40 MPG because you did something slightly less optimal in your driving. That's why it's impossible to reach any conclusion on the slight effects of oil on MPG while your values typically fluctuate +/- 5 MPG or perhaps more as a result of your driving style, which is of course very nice and environmentally conscious. However, is it a nice field-test method for MPG benefits of an oil? Unfortunately, not at all.

I personally would assume the opposite. The OP's consistent driving style with a very well defined purpose (maximized mpg) over a consistent course and long pediods (entire OCIs, not individual tanks) and with a heap of data points that can (and have been) taken into account seems like the best place for such. I prefer real world results when it comes to mpg, engine cleanliness, product lifespan, etc. over sterile lab tests.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Why are you using 5W-20 instead of 0W-20? Give Toyota 0W-20 SN (made by ExxonMobil) a try. You will definitely see an improvement over PYB 5W-20 SN, especially when the oil gets used. It will also offer better protection than PYB.


Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I was pointing out that you cannot draw any conclusion about the effect of oil on MPG from these values.



???


It must boggle some to consider the possibility that an old school "obsolete" 10W30 could perform better than a superior 0W20.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I am not questioning your MPG values. You do seem to be very meticulous about measuring them.

I was pointing out that you cannot draw any conclusion about the effect of oil on MPG from these values. You are a hypermiler and fortunate that you do a lot of 40 - 55 MPH driving. You do make great MPG gains by optimizing your driving. However, these great MPG gains also mean great MPG fluctuations around your average MPG values. One day you may get 50 MPG but the next day you may get 40 MPG because you did something slightly less optimal in your driving. That's why it's impossible to reach any conclusion on the slight effects of oil on MPG while your values typically fluctuate +/- 5 MPG or perhaps more as a result of your driving style, which is of course very nice and environmentally conscious. However, is it a nice field-test method for MPG benefits of an oil? Unfortunately, not at all.


As usual your view is highly skewed towards certain few brands and viscosity oils and I bet your response would be totally different if OP posted same results with Toyota or other thin synthetic oil.

In many threads your view regarding Toyota 0w20 was like this:
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
In my actual experience, I switched from PYB 5W-20 SN (whic is loaded with moly) to Toyota 0W-20 SN. The difference was like day and night. I will never go back to dino. The engine runs a lot smoother and I am seeing fuel-economy improvements around 5%. That's going to save you a lot of money over the OCI. On top of that, you can have somewhat longer OCIs and you will still be fine.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

The 27-plus-year-old engine's performance has been excellent. It has never run this smooth and fuel-efficient. There is no sign of oil deterioration. I just had a trip to Las Vegas on I-15, which has frequent 6% mountain grades that you have to drive 70 MPH, and despite that and the small engine, the fuel economy was an excellent 34 MPG.


Here is one from today:
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Why are you using 5W-20 instead of 0W-20? Give Toyota 0W-20 SN (made by ExxonMobil) a try. You will definitely see an improvement over PYB 5W-20 SN, especially when the oil gets used. It will also offer better protection than PYB.

I used both Toyota 0W-20 SN and PYB 5W-20 SN and I have recent UOAs on them posted here. With Toyota 0W-20 SN, I not only see an MPG improvement but also a much-smoother running engine. You should definitely take the advantage of the far superior cold-engine protection and better fuel economy of these ultra-high-viscosity-index oils..


You keep saying these great things about Toyota oil and none of them are substantiated. When some one posts something that matches your POV you automatically approve, but just like in this thread something gets posted that doesn't match your opinion and you try to find holes. Many times you were called out on your gas mileage claims only to ignore them and kept repeating the same old song. Your bias is way beyond simply liking the product.


My stand in these matters is that it is very hard to conclude anything from even the best fuel logs. The variation is simply too great to pin point a single variable as a source of variance. This applies to this thread as well.
The findings are definitely interesting, but we cannot conclude the oil was the source of gas mileage difference.
 
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