Offroad Endurance Race Oil

[CALencioni]

Hello,

I've got a 4500 ultra4 race rig.

Build Specs:
513HP/583TQ NA
AMC 401 Stroked and Bored to 427ci
Bore 4.195
Stroke 3.86 (turned stock forged crank)
Pistons - Custom ROSS Forged 1.4CH,
Net Dome CCs 25dish,
.927 pin10.03:1
Compression1.6:1
Comp Ultra Gold Rockers
Comp 276HR Cam- Hydraulic Roller(custom thrust plate by machine shop
SCAT Ultra Light Rods Hbeam 5.85"
Performer RPM Air Gap port matched
Edelbrock Heads with Porting/Polishing
1 5/8" ShortiesOil mods
Holley Terminator

Clearance Specs:
Main - .0029
Rod - .009
Ring Gap Top - .022
Ring Gap Bottom - .024

When Running hard, oil runs 250F- hard is pushing as hard as I can coming out of turns, WFO, bat out of hell. Water never gets above 195F. I'm sure the day will come when it runs at 270F 100MPH in the desert, but it hasn't yet.

After break in oil, I moved to GP1 20w50 and have run that for 250 miles. Moved to Torco SR-5R (5R not 5) 20w50 as I'm looking for a race oil. I will change oil every 500-1000 miles.


back story - I'm running Torco SR-5R because the builder said "we tear down a lot of engines, the ones that run TORCO show the best real world wear profiles". The builder builds drag, circle track, and endurance motors for off-road. Anyway, that's all swell and good but I'm trying to find more information on Torco oils? There isn't much on the SR-5R on this forum. I run amsoil in every other vehicle I own- diesel truck, track loader, excavator, and car with great results. I love the stuff and data backs it and enough you tube stuff says "ya it's good". I chose not to run Amsoil just on the fact the builder really pushed to get the motor on Torco. No he doesn't sell Torco. I mean, the stuff is really expensive. Torco themselves say that the race 5R has 2x+ the interval then the 1R from their testing and oil analysis which makes it cheaper from a continued operation perspective. Genright runs this in their shop vehicles, Monster Energy runs this in their sponsored rig.

Question - is there any meaningful objective data people have on this oil? at $18 a quart its wildly expensive, and honestly why wouldn't I just run the Amsoil Signature like everything else I run? (I can't find any objective data that tells me the Amsoil race oil is better than their signature oil which is why I'd just run the signature.) Someone please enlighten/educate me. I want to run the best oil for heavy load/endurance/heat from a protection standpoint, knowing that the oil would get changed 500-1000 miles. I do not need to maximize horsepower/limit parastic losses, no I'm not going to run a 10w30 or even 10w40. I want to feel comfortable if/when the oil temp goes to 280F.

 

[#18FAN]

HPL High Performance Lubricants would probably be your best answers for your questions and the will offer a oil that meets your needs.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Hello,

I've got a 4500 ultra4 race rig.

Build Specs:
513HP/583TQ NA
AMC 401 Stroked and Bored to 427ci
Bore 4.195
Stroke 3.86 (turned stock forged crank)
Pistons - Custom ROSS Forged 1.4CH,
Net Dome CCs 25dish,
.927 pin10.03:1
Compression1.6:1
Comp Ultra Gold Rockers
Comp 276HR Cam- Hydraulic Roller(custom thrust plate by machine shop
SCAT Ultra Light Rods Hbeam 5.85"
Performer RPM Air Gap port matched
Edelbrock Heads with Porting/Polishing
1 5/8" ShortiesOil mods
Holley Terminator

Clearance Specs:
Main - .0029
Rod - .009
Ring Gap Top - .022
Ring Gap Bottom - .024

When Running hard, oil runs 250F- hard is pushing as hard as I can coming out of turns, WFO, bat out of hell. Water never gets above 195F. I'm sure the day will come when it runs at 270F 100MPH in the desert, but it hasn't yet.

After break in oil, I moved to GP1 20w50 and have run that for 250 miles. Moved to Torco SR-5R (5R not 5) 20w50 as I'm looking for a race oil. I will change oil every 500-1000 miles.


back story - I'm running Torco SR-5R because the builder said "we tear down a lot of engines, the ones that run TORCO show the best real world wear profiles". The builder builds drag, circle track, and endurance motors for off-road. Anyway, that's all swell and good but I'm trying to find more information on Torco oils? There isn't much on the SR-5R on this forum. I run amsoil in every other vehicle I own- diesel truck, track loader, excavator, and car with great results. I love the stuff and data backs it and enough you tube stuff says "ya it's good". I chose not to run Amsoil just on the fact the builder really pushed to get the motor on Torco. No he doesn't sell Torco. I mean, the stuff is really expensive. Torco themselves say that the race 5R has 2x+ the interval then the 1R from their testing and oil analysis which makes it cheaper from a continued operation perspective. Genright runs this in their shop vehicles, Monster Energy runs this in their sponsored rig.

Question - is there any meaningful objective data people have on this oil? at $18 a quart its wildly expensive, and honestly why wouldn't I just run the Amsoil Signature like everything else I run? (I can't find any objective data that tells me the Amsoil race oil is better than their signature oil which is why I'd just run the signature.) Someone please enlighten/educate me. I want to run the best oil for heavy load/endurance/heat from a protection standpoint, knowing that the oil would get changed 500-1000 miles. I do not need to maximize horsepower/limit parastic losses, no I'm not going to run a 10w30 or even 10w40. I want to feel comfortable if/when the oil temp goes to 280F.

Something even like Redline 10w40 will operate thick. I wish Dave was still employed with them because he had a lot of good answers and was very knowledgeable about his products. I'm sure somebody's going to tell you but I'll say it, i would run what you feel comfortable running and do two to three oil analysis and when you can get to roughly one part per million of iron or less and there's no consumption or little then you have found the right weight

 

[CALencioni]

revving, can you be more prescriptive? Are you saying run this 20w50 and do analysis of it every couple hundred miles and when it gets to 1/1,000,000 the weight will be in the analysis and use that as my starting weight. Example - I run the oil 300 miles, the weight ?degrades? And then wait to see 1/1,000,000 and then boom that’s my weight?

Is there a thread to showing this process and theory? I know nothing about oil analysis and theory other than on diesels which is when the analysis comes back and get the message “time to change oil”

 

[Marcozi]

Stick with Torco.

 

[kschachn]

HPL High Performance Lubricants would probably be your best answers for your questions and the will offer a oil that meets your needs.

Something even like Redline 10w40 will operate thick. I wish Dave was still employed with them because he had a lot of good answers and was very knowledgeable about his products. I'm sure somebody's going to tell you but I'll say it, i would run what you feel comfortable running and do two to three oil analysis and when you can get to roughly one part per million of iron or less and there's no consumption or little then you have found the right weight

Call either one of these and follow their recommendation. Both are legitimate sources of information regarding racing oils.

And no, there is not any "meaningful and objective data" about Torco.

 

[CALencioni]

I have an email out to Torco to get the metrics redline posts in the tds that Torco doesn’t.

When I get that I’ll build a table. I’m actually surprised the Torco stuff has the detergents it does above the redline race oil.

Also, I’m going to do some oil tests - never done that before so will be “fun” on my equipment, tow rig and race rig.

 

[kschachn]

I have an email out to Torco to get the metrics redline posts in the tds that Torco doesn’t.

When I get that I’ll build a table. I’m actually surprised the Torco stuff has the detergents it does above the redline race oil.

Also, I’m going to do some oil tests - never done that before so will be “fun” on my equipment, tow rig and race rig.

Where have you seen a complete list of detergents, and what do the detergents do for you in this instance?

 

[thastinger]

The RP XPR oil line comes in the weights you want and if you buy it in the 5 gal pale it works out to much less per QT.

 

[CALencioni]

I’ve only seen a listed number of what could be considered detergents on the tds: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0018/3671/2013/files/SR-5R_TDS.pdf?v=1679586897

In this case for long endurance runs, running 100/91 gas mix 50/50, I would think some detergents could be helpful. Also, I went way out of my way to get this thing California plated and take my kids for short trips into town and drive to the station to top up on 91. Also, it’s a good 50+ mile freeway drive up highway 4 to get to the trailhead for slick rock which requires plated vehicles to run on.

So while it’s a race rig, it’s also an overbuilt trail rig and sees street runs

 

[BrendanC]

give HPL a call. they will steer you right and not oversell you. may even be able to extend your intervals a bit with UOA.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Just remember everyone, the thicker oil might better prepare him, but if it gets way too thick it's nearly impossible to shake the heat saturation that the oil has contained. Oils like red line can take forever to get up to temperature but once you get up in that to 270° it may be almost impossible to get it to go down. On a good oil the happy medium of where you want everything at is between 212 to maybe the 240 range give or take a little bit.

 

[Jowens66]

I don’t know anything about what you “need” but AMSOIL has a dominator racing oil.

I’d also be reaching out to Dave at HPL and see what he recommends.

Motul 300 is another “race” oil. Might be able to get it from fcpeuro and do free oil changes. They also carry Redline.

 

[CALencioni]

Just remember everyone, the thicker oil might better prepare him, but if it gets way too thick it's nearly impossible to shake the heat saturation that the oil has contained. Oils like red line can take forever to get up to temperature but once you get up in that to 270° it may be almost impossible to get it to go down. On a good oil the happy medium of where you want everything at is between 212 to maybe the 240 range give or take a little bit.

I've heard that yes, thicker oil will generate more heat due to friction/shear. I will not run anything less thick though. I've gotten from the engine builder, Brad Penn, Driven, and Torco more or less "with your clearances and load requirements run 20w50." That's been consistent across all the conversations. I've seen it at 245F under high, extended and sustained load in sand wash when the outdoor temps are >100F and I'm ok with that. When talking to CBR radiators, they tell me specific LS variants(I think I was told LS3 or 7) will often see 270-300+ oil temps in similar conditions.

I will say, if Torco is making 2-4% more horsepower with the 5R , and others have backed that up in Dyno, that 2-4% more HP what would have been lost to heat generation. 2-4% is roughly stepping down a weight or 2 right? So in my mind that was somehow me saying, "well I want to limit heat but can't run lighter oil, oh hey look they claim less heat if they're making more power"

I will say as well, 240-245(I wrote 250F above to bias "I want oil that protects well at high temp") is as hot as I've gotten oil in this motor since adding the cooler and insulation work. I'd seen it 265-270F pre cooler and insulation under considerably less load/effort.