Obsolete "Motor" oils

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Tom NJ

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Obsolete oils such as SA, SB, SC etc. can be easily found in stores across the country, especially in convenience stores and often in lower income areas. These oils are positioned on shelves among modern motor oils, usually at a lower price, and many tout performance claims while failing to note that the oils can harm most car engines on the road today. Granted there are some limited legitimate applications for some of these oils, such as in air compressors and light duty equipment, but car engines are not among them.

Let's face it, most consumers have no idea what these API letters mean, and like most of us tend to trust product labels, believing that companies would not actually sell harmful products. I know some will say "buyer beware", but I disagree. We can't all be knowledgeable in all fields, and except for BITOGers, oil is just not the center of most people's lives.

So should these products be labeled "Motor Oil", and positioned on shelves with real motor oils without warning, where consumers shopping based on price may be fooled?

In my personal opinion, the marketers of these products know exactly what they are doing - exploiting the innocence of ordinary people for profit without regard for how many engines they damage. I find it despicable! If they want to sell these products for legitimate applications, why not state clearly on the label what these applications are, and that you should NOT put it in your car engine, as the API recommends? Back label statements like "Always consult your owner's manual" or "Follow manufacturer's recommendations" are cop out caveats and no excuse for tricking people and damaging their engines.

I first learned about SA oils at my first national SAE meeting in the early 80s, and was appalled to find them everywhere. Here we are 30+ years later and little has changed. I am still appalled.

What are your thoughts?
 
Model T,s need oil too.There are a lot of 60's cars out there.But then again a lot of people don't read labels.
 
I think we need to distinguish more carefully between legitimate use and inappropriate use and marketing. If I'm looking for a non-detergent 30 grade for an air compressor or something like that, I'm not likely to be looking at one of those on the PQIA's naughty list. I'm probably going to be buying something at least from a recognizable brand (i.e. a straight grade labelled with the name of a known small engine or OPE company) or simply an ISO graded compressor oil to start with.

I do believe in buyer beware and the need for the buyers to understand labels and API/ILSAC markings, but there are limits. I wouldn't buy a garbage non-detergent SAE 30 any more than I'd buy a questionable 5w30.

It's a little off topic, but perhaps air compressor manufacturers could start making appropriate and non-conflicting recommendations in their manuals, perhaps by recommending either an ISO viscosity or a multigrade viscosity, rather than both in the same manual.
wink.gif
 
I agree with you completely.
It may be that the authorities should pursue those selling products unsuitable for the uses listed on their labels, or maybe a tort litigation group should pursue both the bottlers and the retail sellers with a big money class action.
If the legal costs of offering a junk product to unsophisticated and impecunious buyers exceed the economic yield, the activity will cease.
PQIA has done a service by outing bad products sold as motor oil.
OTOH, most buyers probably have no idea of what to buy and where to buy it and are as aware of PQIA as they are of BITOG.
An obvious safety rule for the uninformed would simply be to avoid buying a brand you've never heard of.
A cost saving rule would be to avoid buying oil by the quart at a convenience store when Walmart will sell you a name brand oil more cheaply and offers their very good house brand even cheaper.
 
Additionally deceptive are the similar bottles and labels. A few years back, one of my brothers was in a hurry and grabbed five quarts of cheap 30W for his van. I happened to stop by as he was changing his oil. We were chatting and I picked up one of the bottles. In his haste, he had grabbed three bottles of detergent 30W and two bottles of "SB" rated 30W. Both bottles looked ALMOST exactly the same. The "SB" did not say "non-detergent" - You had to look on the back and in small letters it said "Rated SB." I assume since it did have a very limited amount of additives, it was considered a "detergent" oil. There was no price difference between the two and they were side by side on the shelf. And yes, he left it in and ran it for 3,000 miles.
 
I urge the nanny state to protect us from this because we don't need to pay attention to anything other than baseball box scores and footbal "sacks". "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, Flounder" -- Dean Wormer, Animal House.
 
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Well said, Tom.

Unfortunately, in America this type of behaviour is allowed because "it's a free country" and because we have a capitalistic marketplace where ethics and propriety take a back seat to the Almighty Dollar.

Couple that with the fact that as Americans, we feel we should not have to actually put any effort into educating ourselves and learning something about the products we buy. We just want someone to tell us what's the "best" and take their word for it.
 
Tom and others,

I personally don't feel their is a place for any of these oils you mention. Most/All oils are backward compatible to these specs...except for non-detergent. A class action, or a threat from the oil regulators is going to be needed. Education about different products is what splits the masses into haves and have-nots in most cases....The school of hard knocks works the best, but if your down and out, driving a $300.00 car and you need oil....the last cheap quart of oil you buy and the end result of your engine going south.....might make you pull the trigger!
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
I urge the nanny state to protect us from this because we don't need to pay attention to anything other than baseball box scores and footbal "sacks". "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, Flounder" -- Dean Wormer, Animal House.


The flip side of this is to allow the unscrupulous to prey on the unsophisticated.
Selling a product unsuited to its labeled use is not only unscrupulous it's also illegal and gives rise to a valid tort claim.
 
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Well said, Tom.

Unfortunately, in America this type of behaviour is allowed because "it's a free country" and because we have a capitalistic marketplace where ethics and propriety take a back seat to the Almighty Dollar.

Couple that with the fact that as Americans, we feel we should not have to actually put any effort into educating ourselves and learning something about the products we buy. We just want someone to tell us what's the "best" and take their word for it.


Well said.

Unfortunately self-destructive behavior usually comes back to bite the functional taxpayer.
 
Deceptive practices maybe. But realistically, this obsolete oil is fine for a top off qt. Nobody is going to use "Quickee Mart" SA oil in an oil change. The worst of this stuff will get you down the road.
 
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The $300 clunker that goes through a quart of oil every week or two isn't likely to die from a sub-par oil, those usually die from other causes than the wrong oil... Also the no caring guy that takes his ride to Junky Lube once a year isn't going to blow up his engine topping of with a SA/SB oil, any oil is better than none...

If the do-it-your-self guy doesn't have sense enough to select the proper oil, well that's his problem, so basically I'm in agreement with Dean Wormer...
 
If a convenience store has an oil sale to move dusty inventory to make room for the even more deceptive herbal medicine section, somebody will buy the oil and they may even do an oil change. Any sentence that contains a variation of "NOBODY WILL EVER.." will rarely be correct.
 
The 3000 mi oci club will likely do fine with these old oils, unless they have a DI or turbocharged engine. As long as the oil is the correct weight, it will lubricate the engine. Isn't it the durability of the oil that is in question?


On the subject of the gov 'protecting' the masses, it is that very coddling that has gotten the masses into the situation requiring that protection. As stated earlier in the thread, ee it is buyer beware.
 
Originally Posted By: Kuato
The 3000 mi oci club will likely do fine with these old oils, unless they have a DI or turbocharged engine.

I'm not so sure. These oils, even if they did meet the claimed standards, are nowhere near as robust as required. Aside from that, specifications that dated are simply not enforced or policed, so there could be anything in a supposed "SA" or "SB" oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Kuato
The 3000 mi oci club will likely do fine with these old oils, unless they have a DI or turbocharged engine.

I'm not so sure. These oils, even if they did meet the claimed standards, are nowhere near as robust as required. Aside from that, specifications that dated are simply not enforced or policed, so there could be anything in a supposed "SA" or "SB" oil.


Hmmm yeah maybe you are right. I suppose the days of "oil is oil" could be over, with today's modern engines.
 
Very interesting topic.

Question is, what damage would one oil change running an SA oil do to todays engine? Wouldn't it have to be run for at least 20k miles before you would see damage. Also what damage would come into play, major sludge? Do most of these mom and pop places carry more than maybe two oil changes of SA?

Just throwing it out there.
 
The real thing I would fear is what's actually in the bottle. Does it actually meet the standards that were expected at the time? The API certainly doesn't license anything even remotely that old. If it did meet the standard, one oil change might not be a big deal, but that's assuming the OCI was very, very short and the viscosity was somewhere near reasonable.

What would frighten me are some of the things we've seen in these bottles as shown on the PQIA website. Some of them could hardly be called lubricants at all, and if one were to use them, sludge would be the least of one's worries.
 
LOL

I was briefly east or here in Syracuse, NY yesterday. I stopped at a Valero station and minimart to diesel up the truck and grab some goodies for the ride home. And of course, I saw this abomination on the shelf:

BULLS(hit)EYE oil.

The lousy [censored] who run that company should be charged with fraud and prosecuted...
 
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