OATs with nitrite and molybdate - Questions about different brands and technologies.

[Extreme-Duty]

Hello,

some might find this thread a little boring, but I would like to see a bit more heavy-duty “NOAT” or “HOAT” discussion on BITOG. Without having real world long-term experience with all of them, it is impossible to make any conclusions. Let’s start out:

Can someone tell the difference between the chemistries used in Caterpillar ELC, Texaco ELC, Shell Rotella ELC and Fleetguard ES Optimax?

Also, it would be nice if someone knew the advantages and disadvantages of each product. I have just collected some information form various MSDS’ and from other writings. Some of the ingredients are listed below:

TELC:
Sodium 2-ethylhexanoate

TELC Extender:
Sodium Tolyltriazole
Sodium Nitrite


Cat ELC:
Potassium 2-ethylhexanoate
Sodium Nitrite

Cat ELC Extender:
Sodium Tolyltriazole
Sodium Nitrite

An addition of 2% Cat ELC Extender will add 750 PPM of nitrite to the system. This has been taken from a coolant analysis posted by Stinky Peterson:
Shell Dexcool

Rotella ELC:

I cannot open the MSDS on my computer, but the PDS says something like:

An addition of 2 – 3 % Rotella ELC Extender will add 400 PPM of nitrite to the system.

ES Optimax:
Sodium Benzoat

A coolant expert at Fleetguard said that Optimax contains nearly 10% organic acid, and “Most of the protection available in ES Optimax comes from 3 organic acids in the OAT inhibitor group.“

I guess these 10% are contained in the concentrate.


ES Optimax Extender:
Sodium hydroxide
Sodium molybdate


ES Optimax Converter:
Benzoic acid
Sodium hydroxide
p-tert-Butylbenzoic acid

I am not sure if my „research“ is useful by any means. However, it raises the following questions:


Has Fleetguard avoided the use of sodium- or potasium-2-EHA to warrant better silicone seal compatibility in large Cummins engines?

Is 2-EHA the better technology if seal compatibility is not an issue?

Rotella ELC and TELC both appear to have identical data. Is Rotella ELC basically the same as TELC as a result of the Equilon joint venture, does it include tolyltriazole?

Is tolyltriazole used to protect yellow metals only?

Can we be sure that Optimax does not use tolyltriazole?

As for nitrite and molydate, SCA: There is a thread on BITOG where Stinky Peterson explains that Cat ELC 50/50 contains around 900PPM molybdate and the same level can be found in the coolant analysis section as well. Their PDS shows a content of 530PPM, so did Fleetguard’s 3-Way Test Strips when I tested Cat ELC. At least it showed between 300 and 600 PPM. Are there different analysis methods for molydate, or is one formulation older than the other?

About the Extenders: All of them add nitrite. Cat’s and TELC’s add tolyltriazole as well, whereas Fleetsguard’s is the only to add molybdate as it seems.

The Test stripe I used to test Optimax was definitely a little to old and I have to wait until next week to receive some new stripes, before I can post reasonable “test results”. Until now, it seems that Optimax contains more nitrite, but less molybdate than Cat ELC.

Could it be that Optimax needs a molybdate replenishment because the initial content is low?

Does anyone have experience with ES Optimax, previously called ESXtreme, or does anyone know someone who has, or any data?

Finding the “best” coolant is like finding the “best” engine oil. However, I would like to know what people think. Thanks in advance for joining!

Regards,
E.D.

 

[George7941]

Sorry, Extreme-Duty, it looks like Bitogers do not have enough experience with heavy duty coolants to intelligently reply to your post. I certainly do not know enough to add anything to your post. I do take care of two trucks, one with a Cummins ISB and one with a Mercedes MBE900 engine. I use GO5 coolant, the HOAT with silicates in these engines.I did consider using DD PowerCool and Cat ELC but in the end went with GO5 for the fast acting protection offered by silicates.

 

[Extreme-Duty]

George,

thank you for not leaving me alone with this! How often do you need to change GO5? Do you use any SCAs with it?

Maybe Stinky Peterson and other chemical people have some comments as well.

Yes, the time it takes with OATs to form a waxy coating is surely the downside of this technology. You make me think that the tolyltriazole has been added to TELC and Cat ELC to provide instant yellow metal and aluminium protection, whereas the nitrite and molybdate cover the iron parts.

With a OAT-only coolant, I would be concerned. Texaco’s all application coolant in Europe, Havoline XLC, is actually one of these. It es said to be equivalent to Havoline ELC and Dexcool, but is approved by European heavy-duty diesel engine manufacturers too. No one knows how DC, MAN, Scania, Volvo, DAF and Renault engines can survive without nitrite and molybdate. I am one of those who say that European truck do not last 1,25K mile anyway. Many are sold to the east after 500.000 to 600.000 miles. If they are not sold, they are rebuilt within 700.000 miles. Once, I was at the local DC Truck dealer and they said that most trucks come in for an engine overhaul at 800.000 to 900.000 km or 500.000 to 560.000 miles. However, some may last 1,5Kkm.

Furthermore, nitrite-free heavy-duty coolant are available in The States as well, like Old World’s Final Charge and Mobil Delvac.

Because the Chevron website said that TELC is world wide available, I have been trying to find it, or just another N and MoO4 containing Texaco OAT here in Europe. Sadly, it is not available to end customers and Texaco does not care about American OEM’s.

Now I have chosen Cat ELC as the “one fits it all” coolant. So far, our Case IH Maxxum with its CDC-Cummins 4B 3,9 is just fine with Cat ELC for now 1300 hours and almost 1 year.

Overhere, Fleetguard ES Optimax is not regularly available anymore. At the time it was, I had to wait 2 month to get it shipped from the US. Now they say there is “no market” for their Cat EC-1 coolant in Europe. Therefore, it is too expensive to have it licenced/approved by the European Union and all environmental authorities. Europe is odd, believe me

! Also, they rather want to sell ES Compleat, which is made at their European plant.

I do not care, I like Cat ELC as well and obviously it is the only OAT with nitrite and molybdate I can find in Europe. Still, I would like to know how different brands and chemistries compare.

E.D.

 

[tdi-rick]

G'day Extreme-Duty,
unfortunately Stinky Peterson is no longer with us
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005500#000000

I do remember him saying that the CAT fluid was basically Texaco ELC OAT with a couple of CAT supplementary additives.

 

[tdi-rick]

there is a thread here
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=000112;p=3#000052

quote:

---

Almost all of our ELC is the nitrited version of Dexcool and is made by Texaco.

---

Not much, but something.

 

[Extreme-Duty]

Thank you tdi-rick,

this is really bad news. He deserved a better ending than this accident!

 

[George7941]

[QOUTE]How often do you need to change GO5? Do you use any SCAs with it?[/QOUTE] I go 3 to 4 years with G-05. It works out to about 5000 hrs. I do not use SCAs since it is a fully-formulated coolant meeting ASTM D6210 and TMC RP329 ( American Society for Testing Materials and Truck Manufacturers' Council ). These are the most commonly used specs for HD coolant in North America, I am sure there are equivalent ISO standards. I understand that BASF pioneered OAT coolants, I thought that Europe would be ahead of North America in coolant technology but your posts seem to indicate otherwise. I checked out Finalcharge on the Peak website, I did not know that there was a non-nitrited HD coolant. Also check out the Penray website, they do not beleive in OAT technology. Here is a link to a thread on OAT HD coolants http://roundtable.truck.net/viiewt.php?t=53048&highlight=coolants. I used to use testing strips with conventional coolants, I don't test G-05, just change it out before there is any chance of the additives becoming depleted.