o2 Sensor finally went
- Thread starter buster
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I'd say that's a good life, but when you're wrestling the rust monster to get it out you may wish it had gone sooner. Best of luck, at least it's a straightforward if frustrating job.
Still on my original ones in the Toyota. (fingers crossed)
Originally Posted By: bepperb
I'd say that's a good life, but when you're wrestling the rust monster to get it out you may wish it had gone sooner. Best of luck, at least it's a straightforward if frustrating job.
I had to mess with them on my 2004 GMC truck with 120k on it and they were easy to get out.
Buster, can you swap them and see if it throws the code?
Take care, bill
Originally Posted By: bepperb
I'd say that's a good life, but when you're wrestling the rust monster to get it out you may wish it had gone sooner. Best of luck, at least it's a straightforward if frustrating job.
I had to mess with them on my 2004 GMC truck with 120k on it and they were easy to get out.
Buster, can you swap them and see if it throws the code?
Take care, bill
I don't really see how 126K is amazing. The '94 Prizm has 249,750 miles and is on the factory sensor. Still gets mileage in the 30's.
My wife's 02 Camry has 216K on the clock and is on the factory sensors.
They shouldn't fail as early as 126K
My wife's 02 Camry has 216K on the clock and is on the factory sensors.
They shouldn't fail as early as 126K
JHZR2
Staff member
+1... some do, depends upon the driving profile and how often the heater cycles, IMO... That said, it is a relatively short life, IMO.
Funny how
"Not too surprising considering the car now has 126k miles."
turns into
"I don't really see how 126K is amazing."
It's not amazing for them to have 300,000 miles. It's not surprising to see them fail at 60,000 miles. In my experience, these two ideas are not mutually exclusive.
"Not too surprising considering the car now has 126k miles."
turns into
"I don't really see how 126K is amazing."
It's not amazing for them to have 300,000 miles. It's not surprising to see them fail at 60,000 miles. In my experience, these two ideas are not mutually exclusive.
Are you sure it's an oxygen sensor problem? If it's throwing a lean code, could be a vacuum leak.
Originally Posted By: bepperb
Funny how
"Not too surprising considering the car now has 126k miles."
turns into
"I don't really see how 126K is amazing."
It's not amazing for them to have 300,000 miles. It's not surprising to see them fail at 60,000 miles. In my experience, these two ideas are not mutually exclusive.
I agree, with qualifications.
It's not amazing for a sensor to fail at 60K or to go to 300K, but for different reasons.
There will be a number of sensors fail at 60K or whatever figure below the MTBF because that's the normal distribution of failures. So some will fail at some early age.
Others will fail well beyond the MTBF, because they are at the other end of the normal distribution.
My point was, it seems some felt 126K was a longer than MTBF life, yet my admittedly small sample space indicates that 126K is unremarkable from the perspective of a long life.
Now maybe I have two "outliers" and 126K is right at the MTBF. Odds of that are pretty small, but I don't rule it out.
So to those who are accustomed to failures at say the 80K to 100K range, then 126K will seem like a remarkable feat.
To those accustomed to no failures yet at 200K+, it doesn't seem remarkable in the same way.
Amazing and surprising can be two distinct concepts. So as you say, they are not mutually exclusive. It's simply a matter of perspective. If I had a sensor fail at 126K, I'd feel slighted based on past experience.
Others apparently don't see that as an issue.
Funny how
"Not too surprising considering the car now has 126k miles."
turns into
"I don't really see how 126K is amazing."
It's not amazing for them to have 300,000 miles. It's not surprising to see them fail at 60,000 miles. In my experience, these two ideas are not mutually exclusive.
I agree, with qualifications.
It's not amazing for a sensor to fail at 60K or to go to 300K, but for different reasons.
There will be a number of sensors fail at 60K or whatever figure below the MTBF because that's the normal distribution of failures. So some will fail at some early age.
Others will fail well beyond the MTBF, because they are at the other end of the normal distribution.
My point was, it seems some felt 126K was a longer than MTBF life, yet my admittedly small sample space indicates that 126K is unremarkable from the perspective of a long life.
Now maybe I have two "outliers" and 126K is right at the MTBF. Odds of that are pretty small, but I don't rule it out.
So to those who are accustomed to failures at say the 80K to 100K range, then 126K will seem like a remarkable feat.
To those accustomed to no failures yet at 200K+, it doesn't seem remarkable in the same way.
Amazing and surprising can be two distinct concepts. So as you say, they are not mutually exclusive. It's simply a matter of perspective. If I had a sensor fail at 126K, I'd feel slighted based on past experience.
Others apparently don't see that as an issue.
Without looking at mode $06 data, you don't really know how well the o2 sensor is working. It's pass/fail, but if it passed, well, by how much did it do so?
A friend of mine has a '99 Dodge Dakota 3.9L V6. It has about 150K on it. A few months ago I was looking at the mode $06 data on his truck and saw that, while the upstream oxygen sensor had passed the test, it wasn't by very much. I suggested that he replace it before it failed the test.
He replaced the oxygen sensor and the most noticeable change was an improvement in the idle.
Now, I wouldn't have expected this -- my experience with failures of oxygen sensors is on vehicles where the failure of the o2 sensor has no apparent symptoms whatsoever except that the check engine light is on.
Then again, another friend of mine had a 1997 Honda Del Sol with an oxygen sensor failure (heater circuit failure) and he too noticed an improved idle after the oxygen sensor was replaced.
From what I have seen of the pass/fail thresholds in mode $06, they generally seem to be set to allow the oxygen sensor to degrade quite a bit before declaring it bad.
In my 1997 Crown Vic, the sensor's maximum amplitude could drop to as low as 500mV before the ECU set a code for it. They start at around 800 to 900mV when new, and the switchpoint is 450mV.
I've read that an o2 sensor could be considered bad when it's maximum amplitude drops below 700mV.
Another reference says
Quote:
If the sensor’s output voltage never gets higher than 0.60 V and never drops to less than 0.30 V, it needs to be replaced. The same is true if the sensor’s output is sluggish or doesn't change.
http://www.picoauto.com/applications/lambda-sensor.html
A friend of mine has a '99 Dodge Dakota 3.9L V6. It has about 150K on it. A few months ago I was looking at the mode $06 data on his truck and saw that, while the upstream oxygen sensor had passed the test, it wasn't by very much. I suggested that he replace it before it failed the test.
He replaced the oxygen sensor and the most noticeable change was an improvement in the idle.
Now, I wouldn't have expected this -- my experience with failures of oxygen sensors is on vehicles where the failure of the o2 sensor has no apparent symptoms whatsoever except that the check engine light is on.
Then again, another friend of mine had a 1997 Honda Del Sol with an oxygen sensor failure (heater circuit failure) and he too noticed an improved idle after the oxygen sensor was replaced.
From what I have seen of the pass/fail thresholds in mode $06, they generally seem to be set to allow the oxygen sensor to degrade quite a bit before declaring it bad.
In my 1997 Crown Vic, the sensor's maximum amplitude could drop to as low as 500mV before the ECU set a code for it. They start at around 800 to 900mV when new, and the switchpoint is 450mV.
I've read that an o2 sensor could be considered bad when it's maximum amplitude drops below 700mV.
Another reference says
Quote:
If the sensor’s output voltage never gets higher than 0.60 V and never drops to less than 0.30 V, it needs to be replaced. The same is true if the sensor’s output is sluggish or doesn't change.
http://www.picoauto.com/applications/lambda-sensor.html
"Sensor 2" indicate it is the sensor AFTER the cat.
It just tells the computer that the cat is working.
It just tells the computer that the cat is working.
The post-cat sensors normally live much longer than the cat they're monitoring.
I hope you don't have the experience that I had when replacing both precat O2 sensors on my 98 K3500 with the 7.4L with a little over 99,000 miles on the truck. I tried everything including a torch to try and get mine out with no luck. I ended up taking it to an exhaust shop and they finally got one side out but ruined the threads in the bung and had to weld a new one in. They didn't ruin the threads on the other side but the new sensor doesn't screw completely down. No codes or CEL though.
O2 sensor performance degrades over time and it may take an almost complete failure before the CEL comes on. I've usually noticed better gas mileage when changing them out and on one car it fixed a pinging problem. Good luck on yours.
Wayne
O2 sensor performance degrades over time and it may take an almost complete failure before the CEL comes on. I've usually noticed better gas mileage when changing them out and on one car it fixed a pinging problem. Good luck on yours.
Wayne
http://sites.google.com/site/hondarepairsite/home/2004-honda-oxygen-sensor
Yeah same here. I hope it comes out easy.
Yeah same here. I hope it comes out easy.
Start the car for 3 minutes and it will warm up, you can remove it without any problems.
Stay away from Bosch for your Honda.
Stay away from Bosch for your Honda.
I replaced the one on my Saturn at 115k.
Do you still have the exact code? You should follow the trouble tree from the service manual to confirm that it really is the O2 sensor.
Bosch recommends replacing upstream oxygen sensors every 50,000 miles, but then again, they're in the business of selling these parts.
Do you still have the exact code? You should follow the trouble tree from the service manual to confirm that it really is the O2 sensor.
Bosch recommends replacing upstream oxygen sensors every 50,000 miles, but then again, they're in the business of selling these parts.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Without looking at mode $06 data
Can you expand on that? Is that the equivalent of looking at the response with a scope?
Without looking at mode $06 data
Can you expand on that? Is that the equivalent of looking at the response with a scope?
Here's a couple of articles that explain how mode $06 can be used:
http://www.underhoodservice.com/Article/46504/mode_06_diagnostic_update.aspx
Intro to mode $06
http://www.underhoodservice.com/Article/46504/mode_06_diagnostic_update.aspx
Intro to mode $06
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