TNSTAAFL,
Nuclear Power and Chernobyl
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Originally Posted By: javacontour
I seem to recall we've been talking about breeder reactors since Jimmy Carter was president...
Even before Jimmy Carter. Google "Fermi 1" (fast breeder reactor) for a bit of interesting history.
I seem to recall we've been talking about breeder reactors since Jimmy Carter was president...
Even before Jimmy Carter. Google "Fermi 1" (fast breeder reactor) for a bit of interesting history.
There is a lot of fear, worry and anxiety in your post.
"Mistakes...cannot be tolerated." The perfect world doesn't exist. People die all the time, every day because of mistakes, forseen & unforseen.
Fear of waste, heat & radiation? More fear. . .
"the endless incompetence of the designers, builders and operators is very worrying to me" More worry & fear. What about the 'endless incompetence' of pols throughout the years? Do you worry about them as well? If you really want to be afraid of a human, fear them & the power they wield.
"Too many smart people think they are above and beyond the power of nature." Pols belong at the very top of that list. Right up there with dictators.
"And the storage of spent nuclear fuel and nuclear waste is also very worrying to me." Again, more worry & fear. You've bought into all the agit-prop perpetrated by the fear-mongers since the 60's and you still hold those fears.
Again, look at France. They don't fear nuclear power. Education & knowledge has replaced fear, anxiety and worry. Furthermore, France reprocesses all of its nuclear waste which makes far more sense than sticking it in the ground. It's such a waste to do so as there is still a phenomenial amount of energy that can still be extracted from 'the waste'.
I laugh everytime the stupid media shows a picture of a cooling tower with steam billowing out of the top. They think it's a smoke-stack and that's pollution (smoke) coming out.
They're too stupid to know the difference and that's a huge problem in our society today: Stupidity & ignorance.
"Mistakes...cannot be tolerated." The perfect world doesn't exist. People die all the time, every day because of mistakes, forseen & unforseen.
Fear of waste, heat & radiation? More fear. . .
"the endless incompetence of the designers, builders and operators is very worrying to me" More worry & fear. What about the 'endless incompetence' of pols throughout the years? Do you worry about them as well? If you really want to be afraid of a human, fear them & the power they wield.
"Too many smart people think they are above and beyond the power of nature." Pols belong at the very top of that list. Right up there with dictators.
"And the storage of spent nuclear fuel and nuclear waste is also very worrying to me." Again, more worry & fear. You've bought into all the agit-prop perpetrated by the fear-mongers since the 60's and you still hold those fears.
Again, look at France. They don't fear nuclear power. Education & knowledge has replaced fear, anxiety and worry. Furthermore, France reprocesses all of its nuclear waste which makes far more sense than sticking it in the ground. It's such a waste to do so as there is still a phenomenial amount of energy that can still be extracted from 'the waste'.
I laugh everytime the stupid media shows a picture of a cooling tower with steam billowing out of the top. They think it's a smoke-stack and that's pollution (smoke) coming out.
They're too stupid to know the difference and that's a huge problem in our society today: Stupidity & ignorance.
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Again, look at France. They don't fear nuclear power. Education & knowledge has replaced fear, anxiety and worry. Furthermore, France reprocesses all of its nuclear waste which makes far more sense than sticking it in the ground. It's such a waste to do so as there is still a phenomenial amount of energy that can still be extracted from 'the waste'.
But they do fear when their own village/county/city are selected to bury the "permanent" waste from reprocessing, and fight it tooth and nail until the term "permanent" are switched to "temporary". Not In My Back Yard still applies.
Also the unknown reason that every major nation on earth was abandoning their liquid cooled fast reactor effort tells me they are facing some serious difficulties, whether it is the challenges in safety to tolerate the expected failure scenario, or redundancy to protect from the serious but unexpected disaster (i.e. Fukushima, Chernobyl, or Three Mile Island), or financial feasibility. They abandon their experimental reactors after years of research and did not build new reactors on existing designs, until the very recent.
From the conspiracy theory side of my brain, this tells me that they don't think nuclear had a future until suddenly they start seeing energy crisis coming (Saudi pumps going dry, China and India using all the oils, internet and facebook freeing up the middle east citizens to overthrow our puppet dictators, etc), that they want to start doing researches on it right away.
Anyways, with all the reactors that are coming online with safety and waste reduction by design, I see better future in nuclear energy than the last couple decades. Just eliminating all the coal power plant soot in China and India would be worth the potential risk we have to face, and if they design the core right, the worst would be a shut down of the core for 30 years instead of an explosion or melt down like we have today.
Again, look at France. They don't fear nuclear power. Education & knowledge has replaced fear, anxiety and worry. Furthermore, France reprocesses all of its nuclear waste which makes far more sense than sticking it in the ground. It's such a waste to do so as there is still a phenomenial amount of energy that can still be extracted from 'the waste'.
But they do fear when their own village/county/city are selected to bury the "permanent" waste from reprocessing, and fight it tooth and nail until the term "permanent" are switched to "temporary". Not In My Back Yard still applies.
Also the unknown reason that every major nation on earth was abandoning their liquid cooled fast reactor effort tells me they are facing some serious difficulties, whether it is the challenges in safety to tolerate the expected failure scenario, or redundancy to protect from the serious but unexpected disaster (i.e. Fukushima, Chernobyl, or Three Mile Island), or financial feasibility. They abandon their experimental reactors after years of research and did not build new reactors on existing designs, until the very recent.
From the conspiracy theory side of my brain, this tells me that they don't think nuclear had a future until suddenly they start seeing energy crisis coming (Saudi pumps going dry, China and India using all the oils, internet and facebook freeing up the middle east citizens to overthrow our puppet dictators, etc), that they want to start doing researches on it right away.
Anyways, with all the reactors that are coming online with safety and waste reduction by design, I see better future in nuclear energy than the last couple decades. Just eliminating all the coal power plant soot in China and India would be worth the potential risk we have to face, and if they design the core right, the worst would be a shut down of the core for 30 years instead of an explosion or melt down like we have today.
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Well let me explain a little of that fear, worry, and anxiety. Do you have any idea how long it will be before people can move back in to the Chernobyl area? And we are not talking about a few square miles. There is at least one entire city abandoned there. And a huge area of land. How much do you think that affects the economy-the loss of all of that land for who knows how many years? It has already been several years.
Now compare that with an oil refinery being destroyed in some manner. After the cleanup people and homes and factories will be coming back in within a relatively short period of time. In a few years the disaster will be just a distant memory.
There may be a somewhat similar situation in Japan as in Chernobyl. Maybe not as bad but a large area of land may be basically unusable for a considerable period of time. And Japan is not a big country. They can't really afford a loss of a lot of land.
I submit to you that mistakes are far less tolerable in the design, construction, and operation of a nuclear reactor than in the construction of an oil refinery. Prove me wrong! Compare Chernobyl to some oil refinery disaster somewhere.
And I still do not see any solutions to the storage of nuclear waste. Maybe breeder reactors would help. I don't know. But I studied a lot of Geology in college and I know about some of the issues with the storage of spent nuclear fuel and nuclear waste. You really think it is possible to store nuclear waste for thousands of years without issues?
Just storing nuclear waste in some out of the way remote location with few people is not really a solution. Dumping nuclear waste into the world ocean (out of sight, out of mind) is also not a solution. In Nevada where they had all of that nuclear testing they are already starting to have some issues. And there are storage tanks at the nuclear facility in Washington that are leaking. It appears stainless steel does not last as long as nuclear waste, some of which can remain dangerous for thousands of years. The half-life of Plutonium 239 is something like 23,000 years. A sizable amount of it will remain dangerous for about a quarter of a million years. A microgram (that is one millionth of a gram) inhaled or swallowed will cause cancer in a human being.
On some of those islands in the Pacific where they did nuclear testing there is Plutonium 239 laying on the ground in places.
Let us talk about design issues here a little bit. Like how the Japanese reactors were so poorly designed the critical emergency backup diesel generators could be easily flooded with sea water. But a massive earthquake is so unlikely, we don't have to worry, right? The huge tsunami that flooded those backup generators was SMALL compared to another tsunami that occurred in the history of Japan. Just better design in the case of those backup generators may have prevented a lot of what later took place in the nuclear reactors. Tell me that is not poor design-in an area where there are large earthquakes, volcanic activity, and hurricanes on a regular basis.
I think a little fear, worry and anxiety may be understandable considering how nuclear reactors have been designed, built and operated in the past. And the people who like nuclear power can't seem to understand that their nice shiny stainless steel storage containers and tanks may not last for thousands of years. They can't seem to understand that nuclear waste stored underground in some remote out of the way place where few people live might become an issue for everybody at some time in the future. That a lot can happen in thousands of years. But we will let out grandchildren and great grandchildren worry about all of that, correct?
Now compare that with an oil refinery being destroyed in some manner. After the cleanup people and homes and factories will be coming back in within a relatively short period of time. In a few years the disaster will be just a distant memory.
There may be a somewhat similar situation in Japan as in Chernobyl. Maybe not as bad but a large area of land may be basically unusable for a considerable period of time. And Japan is not a big country. They can't really afford a loss of a lot of land.
I submit to you that mistakes are far less tolerable in the design, construction, and operation of a nuclear reactor than in the construction of an oil refinery. Prove me wrong! Compare Chernobyl to some oil refinery disaster somewhere.
And I still do not see any solutions to the storage of nuclear waste. Maybe breeder reactors would help. I don't know. But I studied a lot of Geology in college and I know about some of the issues with the storage of spent nuclear fuel and nuclear waste. You really think it is possible to store nuclear waste for thousands of years without issues?
Just storing nuclear waste in some out of the way remote location with few people is not really a solution. Dumping nuclear waste into the world ocean (out of sight, out of mind) is also not a solution. In Nevada where they had all of that nuclear testing they are already starting to have some issues. And there are storage tanks at the nuclear facility in Washington that are leaking. It appears stainless steel does not last as long as nuclear waste, some of which can remain dangerous for thousands of years. The half-life of Plutonium 239 is something like 23,000 years. A sizable amount of it will remain dangerous for about a quarter of a million years. A microgram (that is one millionth of a gram) inhaled or swallowed will cause cancer in a human being.
On some of those islands in the Pacific where they did nuclear testing there is Plutonium 239 laying on the ground in places.
Let us talk about design issues here a little bit. Like how the Japanese reactors were so poorly designed the critical emergency backup diesel generators could be easily flooded with sea water. But a massive earthquake is so unlikely, we don't have to worry, right? The huge tsunami that flooded those backup generators was SMALL compared to another tsunami that occurred in the history of Japan. Just better design in the case of those backup generators may have prevented a lot of what later took place in the nuclear reactors. Tell me that is not poor design-in an area where there are large earthquakes, volcanic activity, and hurricanes on a regular basis.
I think a little fear, worry and anxiety may be understandable considering how nuclear reactors have been designed, built and operated in the past. And the people who like nuclear power can't seem to understand that their nice shiny stainless steel storage containers and tanks may not last for thousands of years. They can't seem to understand that nuclear waste stored underground in some remote out of the way place where few people live might become an issue for everybody at some time in the future. That a lot can happen in thousands of years. But we will let out grandchildren and great grandchildren worry about all of that, correct?
First of all, you need to deal with facts, not emotions. No one builds reactors like Chernobyl. You just can't compare any modern operating reactor to Chernobyl. Not built in the last 30 years. If you don't understand why, you need to educate yourself first.
No reactor built in the USA, France or Japan currently producing electricity for a utility is built like Chernobyl. Period.
Second, comparing a nuclear reactor, generating electricity and hot water to an oil refinery generating asphalt, gasoline, light & heavy hydrocarbons, etc. is apples vs. oranges. Oil refineries don't produce electricity for a utility.
Stop comparing Japan to Chernobyl. More apples vs.....oranges isn't even fair.
Again I reject your premis re: chernobyl to oil refinery. Completely different animals, species, phylum, genus, etc. Not to slight oil refineries though. Licensed Chem E's are the ones that design & operate them. When a cat cracker goes though, it sure makes a loud noise and shatters a lot of windows.....
There is a difference between organic chemistry and nuclear chemistry.
Your response indicates you don't realize how much energy is still remaining in 'nuclear waste'! As if it's exhausted. Nothing could be further from the truth. Burying it BEFORE reprocessing it IS stupid, as there is a huge amount of energy being wasted otherwise. The French know this and have been reprocessing their waste for over 30 years now.
You need to watch the PBS special done in the 90's on nuclear power. Stainless steel??? They did numerous tests on glass-casts back then. Burned them. Crashed them on trains. The reporter & engineer are standing right next to one, with the film rolling. Go watch it on-line.
Lastly, if you're truly worried about future generations, 'the children' as the media likes to put it, they're already screwed because of the idiots in Washington, not from nuclear power.
You really don't get it, do you?
No reactor built in the USA, France or Japan currently producing electricity for a utility is built like Chernobyl. Period.
Second, comparing a nuclear reactor, generating electricity and hot water to an oil refinery generating asphalt, gasoline, light & heavy hydrocarbons, etc. is apples vs. oranges. Oil refineries don't produce electricity for a utility.
Stop comparing Japan to Chernobyl. More apples vs.....oranges isn't even fair.
Again I reject your premis re: chernobyl to oil refinery. Completely different animals, species, phylum, genus, etc. Not to slight oil refineries though. Licensed Chem E's are the ones that design & operate them. When a cat cracker goes though, it sure makes a loud noise and shatters a lot of windows.....
There is a difference between organic chemistry and nuclear chemistry.
Your response indicates you don't realize how much energy is still remaining in 'nuclear waste'! As if it's exhausted. Nothing could be further from the truth. Burying it BEFORE reprocessing it IS stupid, as there is a huge amount of energy being wasted otherwise. The French know this and have been reprocessing their waste for over 30 years now.
You need to watch the PBS special done in the 90's on nuclear power. Stainless steel??? They did numerous tests on glass-casts back then. Burned them. Crashed them on trains. The reporter & engineer are standing right next to one, with the film rolling. Go watch it on-line.
Lastly, if you're truly worried about future generations, 'the children' as the media likes to put it, they're already screwed because of the idiots in Washington, not from nuclear power.
You really don't get it, do you?
I am a proponent of nuclear energy.
Two problems that show we are not mature enough to harness it:
Waste - We need to inject it into the mantle for disposal. Deepest hole is 12km ever drilled. We're not going to solve this .
Human factor - someone will always cock up.
Two problems that show we are not mature enough to harness it:
Waste - We need to inject it into the mantle for disposal. Deepest hole is 12km ever drilled. We're not going to solve this .
Human factor - someone will always cock up.
Chernobyl could happen anywhere. Duke Energy is closing its nuclear plant near me in Crystal River, Florida. A crack developed in the plant's containment building in 2009, the utility tried to repair it on the cheap and more cracks developed. Spent fuel will remain at the site and it won't be until maybe 60 years from now that they'll try to dismantle the plant. Duke Energy still has two new nuclear plants on the drawing board to build up in the next county...they gotta find the zillions of dollars to build them and how to get permits first. The Crystal River closing is first nuclear plant closing in southeast U.S.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/en...or-more/1276841
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/en...or-more/1276841
Originally Posted By: Oldasco
Chernobyl could happen anywhere. Duke Energy is closing its nuclear plant near me in Crystal River, Florida. A crack developed in the plant's containment building in 2009, the utility tried to repair it on the cheap and more cracks developed. Spent fuel will remain at the site and it won't be until maybe 60 years from now that they'll try to dismantle the plant. Duke Energy still has two new nuclear plants on the drawing board to build up in the next county...they gotta find the zillions of dollars to build them and how to get permits first. The Crystal River closing is first nuclear plant closing in southeast U.S.
No, you need to go back and reread what is posted here. Your local plant has nothing in common with Chernobyl and the worst it would have gotten is Three Miles Island (likely) or Fukushima (unlikely as US are not as secretive and cover up friendly as Japan).
What you said is the main reasons why there will be few nuke plants in the future: permits, regulations, and citizen protests.
Cell phone towers are in the same boats. I can tolerate people not understanding the difference between the open reactor like Chernobyl and the one we have today, but come on, more cell tower will means turning the power down for every tower and cell phone to reduce interference, which means it is good for everyone.
Chernobyl could happen anywhere. Duke Energy is closing its nuclear plant near me in Crystal River, Florida. A crack developed in the plant's containment building in 2009, the utility tried to repair it on the cheap and more cracks developed. Spent fuel will remain at the site and it won't be until maybe 60 years from now that they'll try to dismantle the plant. Duke Energy still has two new nuclear plants on the drawing board to build up in the next county...they gotta find the zillions of dollars to build them and how to get permits first. The Crystal River closing is first nuclear plant closing in southeast U.S.
No, you need to go back and reread what is posted here. Your local plant has nothing in common with Chernobyl and the worst it would have gotten is Three Miles Island (likely) or Fukushima (unlikely as US are not as secretive and cover up friendly as Japan).
What you said is the main reasons why there will be few nuke plants in the future: permits, regulations, and citizen protests.
Cell phone towers are in the same boats. I can tolerate people not understanding the difference between the open reactor like Chernobyl and the one we have today, but come on, more cell tower will means turning the power down for every tower and cell phone to reduce interference, which means it is good for everyone.
Originally Posted By: Oldasco
Chernobyl could happen anywhere. Duke Energy is closing its nuclear plant near me in Crystal River, Florida. A crack developed in the plant's containment building in 2009, the utility tried to repair it on the cheap and more cracks developed. Spent fuel will remain at the site and it won't be until maybe 60 years from now that they'll try to dismantle the plant. Duke Energy still has two new nuclear plants on the drawing board to build up in the next county...they gotta find the zillions of dollars to build them and how to get permits first. The Crystal River closing is first nuclear plant closing in southeast U.S.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/en...or-more/1276841
Read my OP, and you will understand. No, Chernobyl can not happen anywhere. Chernobyl was caused by a faulty design (again, read the OP, I explain it) and improper training.
Chernobyl could happen anywhere. Duke Energy is closing its nuclear plant near me in Crystal River, Florida. A crack developed in the plant's containment building in 2009, the utility tried to repair it on the cheap and more cracks developed. Spent fuel will remain at the site and it won't be until maybe 60 years from now that they'll try to dismantle the plant. Duke Energy still has two new nuclear plants on the drawing board to build up in the next county...they gotta find the zillions of dollars to build them and how to get permits first. The Crystal River closing is first nuclear plant closing in southeast U.S.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/en...or-more/1276841
Read my OP, and you will understand. No, Chernobyl can not happen anywhere. Chernobyl was caused by a faulty design (again, read the OP, I explain it) and improper training.
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Originally Posted By: Oldasco
Duke Energy's Crystal River nuclear plant was closed because it is faulty.
:facepalm:
But it isn't a fault DESIGN.
Duke Energy's Crystal River nuclear plant was closed because it is faulty.
:facepalm:
But it isn't a fault DESIGN.
Nick,
Have you thought about the engineering field as a career ?
Have you thought about the engineering field as a career ?
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Nick,
Have you thought about the engineering field as a career ?
I have, problems are that I'm not nearly good enough at the actual math part of it. I'm much more of a hands-on type than I am sit and do loads of algebra and calculus. I am very good at looking at something and understanding how it works.
Nick,
Have you thought about the engineering field as a career ?
I have, problems are that I'm not nearly good enough at the actual math part of it. I'm much more of a hands-on type than I am sit and do loads of algebra and calculus. I am very good at looking at something and understanding how it works.
I guess there really isn't much wrong with the Crystal River nuclear power plant...the cracks in the concrete containment walls probably could be repaired for as little as $3.5 billion (with a 'b', not an 'm'). Electric consumers I'm sure don't mind picking up the tab in their utility bills. Crystal River may not have leaked radiation, but it surely is a financial disaster. Right now the offline nuclear power plant is nothing but a nuclear waste storage facility.
I don't have anything against nuclear energy, but any utility considering building a new nuclear powered electric generating plant needs to take into consideration what happened at Crystal River. Utilities don't want to build costly plants that can't be used...utilities can learn from the Crystal River plant.
I don't have anything against nuclear energy, but any utility considering building a new nuclear powered electric generating plant needs to take into consideration what happened at Crystal River. Utilities don't want to build costly plants that can't be used...utilities can learn from the Crystal River plant.
Originally Posted By: Oldasco
Chernobyl could happen anywhere.
Obviously this has been explained...more than once. Yet you persist in showing your own ignorance.
Mark Twain said it best: "Better to close your mouth and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
"A lie can get halfway around the World before the Truth can ever get its boots on." --Mark Twain.
Chernobyl could happen anywhere.
Obviously this has been explained...more than once. Yet you persist in showing your own ignorance.
Mark Twain said it best: "Better to close your mouth and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
"A lie can get halfway around the World before the Truth can ever get its boots on." --Mark Twain.
Personal attack after personal attack after personal attack. Why is this allowed here? Can be have a debate, a discussion, without attacking the other person?
Since anybody who dares to say anything negative about nuclear power plants is dumb I guess we might as well start building a bunch of them. Let's build some more in Japan right near the sea coast and preferably with the back up generators right near the dock. That is great design. That way we can unload the fuel for the back up generators right there and not have to truck it to higher ground.
Those leaking tanks holding nuclear waste at the nuclear facilities in Washington-that is ancient history. Besides, as long as the stainless steel tanks and containers don't leak in my lifetime it is okay. The grandchildren and great grandchildren will have to take care of themselves.
And whatever you do-don't consult with the geologists about any nearby fault lines, volcanic activity, or the dead certain probability that there will be a massive tsunami at some future time on this coast (Washington and Oregon coastline).
Exactly how likely is a magnitude 9 earthquake anyway? You see what I mean!
Since anybody who dares to say anything negative about nuclear power plants is dumb I guess we might as well start building a bunch of them. Let's build some more in Japan right near the sea coast and preferably with the back up generators right near the dock. That is great design. That way we can unload the fuel for the back up generators right there and not have to truck it to higher ground.
Those leaking tanks holding nuclear waste at the nuclear facilities in Washington-that is ancient history. Besides, as long as the stainless steel tanks and containers don't leak in my lifetime it is okay. The grandchildren and great grandchildren will have to take care of themselves.
And whatever you do-don't consult with the geologists about any nearby fault lines, volcanic activity, or the dead certain probability that there will be a massive tsunami at some future time on this coast (Washington and Oregon coastline).
Exactly how likely is a magnitude 9 earthquake anyway? You see what I mean!
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