Now for India Ford....

[PeterPolyol]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


They spent it upgrading 13 facilities. Check the DOE link for details. The C-Max plug-in hybrid was a product of this investment, but there was other stuff as well.


Thanks for outlining the distribution of those loans in your last post, clearly Ford got the benefit of several times what Tesla got in direct loans. Yet, still no EV. Wasn't that the pretense it was loaned under? I'm not moved at all by the vague verbage on the DOE page regarding how much CO2 'plant upgrades' saved the environment, Ford isn't a CO2 leader in the industry by any stretch. Must be nice for Ford to be the benefactor of publicly-funded, long-term, interest-free loans to the tune of $6B- and with nothing to show to for it in the EV dept. They sure seem to have plenty of liquidity for advertizing.

Quote:

They lost 11.2 billion on the GM bailout. That's money that has vanished. That is money that is not being repaid. That was not a loan. This is a loan, and it is being paid back.

It's not 'vanished' if the government acquires ownership of the organization. I have no reason to defend GM, but the government isn't in the business of making money vanish behind private companies, they benefit in some way.

Quote:

Again, it was for the upgrading of 13 facilities. Check the DOE article.

That's really generous of the American tax payer, to afford Ford decades of free loans to "upgrade facilities". Tesla is doing magnitudes more EV innovation, and only got by with 500Mil. Again, really generous deal for Ford. I can only wonder if the 'government' is being paid back in Ford product, and if those figures are used to bolster Ford's sales figures.........

The DOE page reads like cheap marketing; I see a lot of "saved CO2" figures with no scale. It might as well say "Ford was able to save up to 20x the CO2 pollution.[full stop]" How and compared to what, or whom?

I'd like to meet the person that does the accounting at either the DoE or Ford Motor, until then they can easily greenwash random 6B, interest/tax-free, long term loans all day long. Publicly-funded, high-stakes chicanery doesn't get off easy over here.

 

[OVERKILL]

Twice you claimed the loans are interest free. Do you have any data to back that up or is that just pomp-posit slung to carry your agenda?

The Canadian government also bailed out GM. Does the Canadian government own part of the "new" GM? No, they do not.

I find it rather amusing that you'll sit here and continue to slag Ford for taking a loan. Have you ever had a mortgage? Car payment? How about a small business loan? Businesses get loaned money all the time. Quite often the terms are good as well. The only time this becomes an issue is when those terms are defaulted on. Ford didn't go bankrupt and has paid back in the neighbourhood of $3 billion on what they were lent from the DOE. Whether that aligns with your personal feelings on the matter is irrelevant. You can sing foul and peddle ridiculous hyperbolic tripe until you are blue in the face and accompany it with as many smiley faces as you want, it doesn't change those facts.

BTW, the DOE interest rates are based on credit rating, information available here (and updated periodically, last revision is 2015):

DOE Interest Rate spread

With a good credit rating, the interest rate is quite good. If Ford's rating was AAA, the interest would have been %0.375 for example.

 

[rshaw125]

More good news in addition to Iphone potentially being made in the US..... Ford are not moving SUV production to Mexico. The Kentucky plant.

 

[PeterPolyol]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

I find it rather amusing that you'll sit here and continue to slag Ford for taking a loan.

Heck yeah, because Ford and their disciples have enjoyed years of singing the same old song that Ford was the only one that didn't fall on a big ol' cushion of PUBLIC CASH to save their sorry butts from the brink of chapter 11, that's why. Too big to fail. IDGAF about Ford's feelings when they have a $6B parachute handed to them under green and "save American jobs" pretenses just to keep them and their mismanagement afloat and support their ultra-aggressive marketing. You're darn tootin' I'm going to
Quote:
sing foul
, that's what I do. I don't see any new platforms, engine architectures, more American/Canadian jobs, I see R&D for stupefying commercials and hiring shills to ruin forums with Ecoboost spam and press shots of Ford vehicles.

You know, many automakers contract the same marketing agencies for their campaigns, and when it comes to the point that I can see "Ford favor" in a G-D Mitsubishi commercial, I know Ford isn't on a tight budget when it comes to buying that loyalty from said contractor. When some automotive forums I visit are clearly being astroturfed and shilled by these same contractors on behalf of Ford Motor (and notably one other automaker, guess who), I know who bloody well paid for it- TAX PAYERS!
That's what really get's me going, and if that "agenda" rubs you the wrong way- too bad Fordfan. Too bad.

So in light of that, I'll say it straight: if Ford couldn't survive to what they are right now, without a $6B+ dollar, tax-funded cannon shot at them, then they got bailed out period.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol

Heck yeah, because Ford and their disciples have enjoyed years of singing the same old song that Ford was the only one that didn't fall on a big ol' cushion of PUBLIC CASH to save their sorry butts from the brink of chapter 11, that's why.


But they didn't go Chapter 11. They mortgaged the farm, including their brand, so they didn't have to.

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Too big to fail.


No, that was GM. As per the bailout.

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
IDGAF about Ford's feelings when they have a $6B parachute handed to them under green and "save American jobs" pretenses


Obviously you do there champ, or we wouldn't be having this conversation, now would we? And in fact you are now calling it a parachute, despite the fact that it was a loan, and not "no interest" as per your agenda-ridden claim.

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
just to keep them and their mismanagement afloat and support their ultra-aggressive marketing. You're darn tootin' I'm going to
Quote:
sing foul
, that's what I do.


And this affects you how? I mean aside from your [censored] and moaning, they are paying back the DOE loan, in fact, they've paid more than 1/2 of it back, so what does this have to do with you, Peter in Canada, whining and complaining about Ford, who was the only one of the three not bailed out by the Canadian Government? I'm not feeling your anger here big guy

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
I don't see any new platforms, engine architectures, more American/Canadian jobs, I see R&D for stupefying commercials and hiring shills to ruin forums with Ecoboost spam and press shots of Ford vehicles.

And massive amounts of payback for all the money Ford borrowed because they didn't go bankrupt......

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
You know, many automakers contract the same marketing agencies for their campaigns, and when it comes to the point that I can see "Ford favor" in a G-D Mitsubishi commercial, I know Ford isn't on a tight budget when it comes to buying that loyalty from said contractor. When some automotive forums I visit are clearly being astroturfed and shilled by these same contractors on behalf of Ford Motor (and notably one other automaker, guess who), I know who bloody well paid for it- TAX PAYERS!


Oh, you need to explain that one. How did the tax payers pay for a Ford commercial?

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
That's what really get's me going, and if that "agenda" rubs you the wrong way- too bad Fordfan. Too bad.

So in light of that, I'll say it straight: if Ford couldn't survive to what they are right now, without a $6B+ dollar, tax-funded cannon shot at them, then they got bailed out period.


Your bias is so ridiculous it isn't even funny. They borrowed close to 30 BILLION frigging dollars. They even put their brand on the line. The fact that they borrowed 5.9 billion to retool a few plants is insignificant. It is less than the amount of money the Canadian government; OUR GOVERNMENT, lost on the GM bailout. Think about that for a few minutes. I'm not sure what's going on with the hate hard-on you've got for Ford, but one thing is for sure, it most certainly sure as [censored] isn't rooted in any form of reality.

 

[PeterPolyol]

Borrowing billions to stay alive, one of the most recognized, "powerful" and puzzlingly BEST SELLING brands in the world finds itself in 2009 struggling to survive. Cripes. Think about that, does it make sense? Ford can go buzz-off and solicit a GD bank, don't come panhandling to our bloody governments begging for steamy pile of greenbux and jobbux from the cookie jar just to stay alive to market harder than ever. I've made my case repeatedly regarding technology and (product)R&D, so it need not be reiterated.

Next, McDonalds, on the brink of failure, borrows 10 billion from the Ministry of Health with "the goal of ensuring healthier food options to reduce the health impact on the population" and they spend it all upgrading deep-fryers and restaurants while at the same time sourcing off-shore beef. Disgusting.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Borrowing billions to stay alive, one of the most recognized, "powerful" and puzzlingly BEST SELLING brands in the world finds itself in 2009 struggling to survive. Cripes. Think about that, does it make sense?


Your interpretation of it doesn't make sense. Nissan and Tesla also took the same loan money, from the same program.

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Ford can go buzz-off and solicit a GD bank, don't come panhandling to our bloody governments begging for steamy pile of greenbux and jobbux from the cookie jar just to stay alive to market harder than ever.


Our governments? your location lists Canada, same as mine. Ford didn't come to the Canadian government for money, only GM and Chrysler did.

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
I've made my case repeatedly regarding technology and (product)R&D, so it need not be reiterated.


You've made absolutely bugger all for a case in this thread to be honest. All you've done is continue to repeat tripe and manufactured nonsense, and that doesn't change no matter how many times you choose to repeat it.

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Next, McDonalds, on the brink of failure, borrows 10 billion from the Ministry of Health with "the goal of ensuring healthier food options to reduce the health impact on the population" and they spend it all upgrading deep-fryers and restaurants while at the same time sourcing off-shore beef. Disgusting.


At least there appears to be no end to the ridiculous hyperbole you won't try to drum up to support your nonsense. Nobody else has responded to you. Nobody has defended your position. Perhaps that's a clue.....

 

[PeterPolyol]

Nissan and Tesla have EVs.
Nissan and Tesla were not facing bankruptcy due to incompetent mismanagement.
Nissan and Tesla borrowed fractions what Ford accepted.

My living in Canada is inconsequential to the contention.

You don't like what I have to say, too bad pal. Call it what you want, instead of addressing the issue.

Again, more opinion. No one else needs to say anything or support my argument. Why should they? An appeal to popularity isn't an argument, either.

If anyone has a problem with my posts, PM me. If enough people have a problem with my posts, I'll gladly take off- I'm not here to make friends, already tried it once. The dialog speaks for itself; the fordfan doesn't like skepticism or dissent towards his favourite company, hardly a unique case.

ps- don't bother quote-splitting. I've made my case.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: rshaw125
GM still owes the US taxpayer money Ford does not.



This is as tiring as hearing about Chinese tires, Walmart and dealer bashing, and how great Michelin tires are.

Now go buy a south of the border Ford.

Completely useless.....

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Nissan and Tesla have EVs.


And Ford has a plug-in Hybrid.

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Nissan and Tesla were not facing bankruptcy due to incompetent mismanagement.


Nissan perhaps not, Tesla has borrowed a ton of money to stay alive.

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Nissan and Tesla borrowed fractions what Ford accepted.


Yes, but they still borrowed from the exact same program, a part you seem to be getting disconnected from.

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
My living in Canada is inconsequential to the contention.


Actually, it was quite consequential to your contention, as you mentioned COUNTRIES, plural, whilst the DOE loan was from the US only, not Canada. As per my point.

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
You don't like what I have to say, too bad pal. Call it what you want, instead of addressing the issue.


Well, "pal", that's because it is manufactured garbage, and I've called it that several times now. Like you saying the loans were interest free, which was an outright lie. See, you've not only peddled agenda, but outright fabrications so far in this thread.

So actually, I AM addressing the issue, which is not only the nonsense, but the falsehoods as well that you've continued along with in your attempt to, for whatever personal reasons I certainly can't relate to, berate the Ford motor company for taking a bloody loan, something I am quite certain you've done in your life, as have most members of this site.

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Again, more opinion. No one else needs to say anything or support my argument. Why should they? An appeal to popularity isn't an argument, either.


Actually, I've presented numerous facts. Like the fact the DOE loans had interest. Which countered your lie. like the fact that Ford has paid 1/2 the loan back. I've countered all your mud-slinging with facts, the only one peddling opinion here is you, coupled with a healthy serving out bovine excrement for those in search of that extra flavour.

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
If anyone has a problem with my posts, PM me. If enough people have a problem with my posts, I'll gladly take off- I'm not here to make friends, already tried it once. The dialog speaks for itself; the fordfan doesn't like skepticism or dissent towards his favourite company, hardly a unique case.

ps- don't bother quote-splitting. I've made my case.


LOL! You've made a "case". I quote split because that's how I quote. Given my post count, I think you'd have figured that one out by now. No, you are certainly not here to make friends, you are here to stir up the faeces and start arguments. You are doing a stupendous job! Keep it up

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Nissan perhaps not, Tesla has borrowed a ton of money to stay alive.

If my companies were bleeding money like Tesla, the boards of directors would have had me joining Ron Dennis on gardening leave. Then again, it would be for cause, so I wouldn't need gardening leave.

I didn't promise to set a man on Mars in ten years, either, though.