Non greasable ball joints question.

[Trav]

Another greasable vs greasable question. Check this out. Is it normal for the greased tie rod end to be thicker than a non greasable one? Does the thickness matter?

The length of the ball stud taper is all that is important, the inner and outer taper should fit snugly with no play and have enough threads to properly tighten and the boot to compress the correct amount. The LFL is a much easier joint to live with and in many cases last much longer.

 

[Falcon_LS]

Leave it the way it is. I avoid greaseable ball joints, and often go with Lemforder or TRW sealed units. Never had a problem.

 

[Lubener]

Myself, If I had a choice, my front end parts will have a grease fitting. If greased periodically, that part will outlast the vehicle. I had too many OEM, non greasable front end parts wear out long before hitting 100k. I never had to replace a greasable part because I maintained it. I still have all greasable front end parts on my F150 which I replaced in 1997 and everything is still tight. All Moog parts.

 

[Trav]

Myself, If I had a choice, my front end parts will have a grease fitting. If greased periodically, that part will outlast the vehicle. I had too many OEM, non greasable front end parts wear out long before hitting 100k. I never had to replace a greasable part because I maintained it. I still have all greasable front end parts on my F150 which I replaced in 1997 and everything is still tight. All Moog parts.

Moog parts from 1997 are not the Moog parts as today. At one time Moog was the gold standard for aftermarket replacements but now they are one step above white box (that is being charitable, crap is more like) . I remember a time long before LFL became commonplace and a LOF was every 3K and the guys doing the work were familiar with grease fittings and serviced them properly.

I guess no parts ever wore out and the cars all went to the bone yard with their original parts and Moog is a recent company. No, that is pure fantasy, we did more front end work then than today by a long shot.

 

[Jetronic]

The length of the ball stud taper is all that is important, the inner and outer taper should fit snugly with no play and have enough threads to properly tighten and the boot to compress the correct amount. The LFL is a much easier joint to live with and in many cases last much longer.

No it's not all that matters as you change the angle of the tie rod in relation to the control arms. That influences bump and roll steer. It's not important if you drive slow enough not to have significant roll.

 

[Trav]

Look at the pictures man, the mounting point is the same, the greasables are only different on the bottom. The tie rods on this car are floating in a ball socket on the rack if the alignment is correct it will make zero difference, the angle is not being changed.
We are comparing the ones in the pic he posted not engineering principles in general where the mounting point could be different, then it would make a difference.

 

[Jetronic]

I did look at the picture and i think the balljoint sits half an inch lower. The mounting point doesn't matter, the pivot point does.

 

[Trav]

The pivot point seems identical, any small differences are not going to amount to anything that a proper alignment cannot compensate for, putting in new struts or springs will change the angle more than changing this part.
I see you are not accounting for the adjustability of the tie rod end.

 

[Jetronic]

I see you don't understand roll steer or bump steer. You can't dial that out in an alignment.

 

[Trav]

I understand it just fine, this is common on dropped, lifted and vehicles that use different spindles. The problem is the ones in the picture are not different enough to cause this. You are making something out of nothing I said small amount (a mm or 2) not inches.
Why don't you explain how such a small difference will cause these issues.

Aftermarket parts assuming they are properly made and for the vehicle will work within OE tolerances. The new joint does not look a half inch lower to me.

 

[demarpaint]

Why would Moog release a part for that specific vehicle that would induce a steering issue?

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Why would Moog release a part for that specific vehicle that would induce a steering issue?

The same reason they use greaseable fittings rather than sealed

Moog Problem Starter

 

[demarpaint]

The same reason they use greaseable fittings rather than sealed

Moog Problem Starter

LOL

 

[Jetronic]

Why would Moog release a part for that specific vehicle that would induce a steering issue?

Maybe it's a part that "also fits" ? And I don't know if it will be an issue on that car. Could make things worse or better depending on the original layout. Most likely just causes extra understeer.

 

[Jetronic]

I understand it just fine, this is common on dropped, lifted and vehicles that use different spindles. The problem is the ones in the picture are not different enough to cause this. You are making something out of nothing I said small amount (a mm or 2) not inches.
Why don't you explain how such a small difference will cause these issues.

Aftermarket parts assuming they are properly made and for the vehicle will work within OE tolerances. The new joint does not look a half inch lower to me.

It all depends how deep the ball sits. Only leakyseals can see that. 2mm won't be an issue but it does look like more to me...

 

[demarpaint]

Maybe it's a part that "also fits" ? And I don't know if it will be an issue on that car. Could make things worse or better depending on the original layout. Most likely just causes extra understeer.

Looking at the pictures I would think it would fit a stock un-modified front end w/o issue. Over the years I've installed many aftermarket front end parts that looked a little different, but fit perfectly and worked the way they were supposed to. I had replaced a drag link on an old E-150 with a Moog part that was visibly thicker, but everything fit the way it was supposed to. I had an alignment done after installing it to be sure. The old Fords with the Twin I-Beam suspension were limited to what could be done with an alignment w/o cold bending parts, etc. It worked perfectly in the end.

 

[Jetronic]

It's not about fitment, demarpaint. I'm sure the part fits perfectly. But to eliminate as much as possible the toe changing from suspension deflection. The angles at which the control arms (with double wishbone setup) or just the lower control arm (mcpherson) sit with the tie rod are important. The control arm describes an arc, and the tie rod should follow the same arc. If the tie rod balljoint changes position relative to the LCA balljoint the arcs can be out of plane and toe changes on its own from suspension deflection.


I borrowed a picture from the web that shows what I mean.

If you extend the line through the LCA and add a 90 degree line from the top of the strut, those lines will intersect in the instant center. The tie rod if extended must meet the other lines at the instant center aswell. Change the angle of the tie rod by itself (from center of balljoint to mounting point on steering rack) and toe changes with suspension travel. Nearly all cars have bump/roll steer to some degree, and as trav mentioned lowering or raising suspension can make this worse. So can fitting parts that move stuff around. And you can't fix this in an alignment.

 

[Trav]

It depends on the alignment, if you are aligning a vehicle that has had some mods you may need to shim the rack down, use a special ball joint or something else to bring everything into proper alignment. Proper alignment to me is more than the $75 special at the local tire store.

 

[LeakySeals]

Weather delays here I'll take a picture when it's installed

 

[LeakySeals]

Appreciate everyone's input. Finally good weather to work outside and reassemble the front end. While measuring old vs new I noticed play or movement between the inner and outer tie rod threads of the new parts. Like the diameters are not exact. Seems to go away when the lock nut is tightened. Normal? Also the old lock nuts are thicker. Should I use them or the new ones