Somewhat related article http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils
Noisy Ford 5.4
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The heavy oil is masking a harmless noise in most cases and the oil is just a noise bandaid. And it doesn't work, or fully work, in many cases. There is no other benefit to running the heavy oil. Unfortunately, an excessive amount of noise is also the indicator of a bad phaser and oil doesn't fix this either. And you need to know the difference in sound. If I had phaser issues, I'd be tempted to install the Livernois phaser limiter or lockout kit and be done with it. It costs 10-20 hp at the upper end but who cares. MIne is a working truck, not a hotrod. It only sees high r[pm on the dyno (in fact it will be on the dyno again next Friday for the some exhaust system testing).
You could say, and I wouldn't disagree, that Ford's engineering on the VCT system was not the greatest (and do NOT get me started on the HT spark plug issue either) and we shouldn't really even be having this argument. Honda and GM, to name just two, had VCT systems in the Modular era and they weren't noisy.
You could say, and I wouldn't disagree, that Ford's engineering on the VCT system was not the greatest (and do NOT get me started on the HT spark plug issue either) and we shouldn't really even be having this argument. Honda and GM, to name just two, had VCT systems in the Modular era and they weren't noisy.
Originally Posted By: Challenger71
Somewhat related article http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils
From 2003 and it's been linked here many times. It's from the early days of the 5W20 changeover before there was a lot of long term data and when chicken-little articles were all the rage. But , yeah, it doesn't have much relevance to this topic. Wear is not the issue with the Modulars, it's more a case of a poor design and the various bandaids people use to eliminate an annoying noise.
Somewhat related article http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils
From 2003 and it's been linked here many times. It's from the early days of the 5W20 changeover before there was a lot of long term data and when chicken-little articles were all the rage. But , yeah, it doesn't have much relevance to this topic. Wear is not the issue with the Modulars, it's more a case of a poor design and the various bandaids people use to eliminate an annoying noise.
Posted circa 2003 yet still available which strongly indicates it remains a viable issue.
Wear not the problem? Apparently some posters on this topic would disagree. I was attempting to help some individuals on the viscosity situation so I'm not concerned on link analysis of how many times an article was hyperlinked.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: Challenger71
Somewhat related article http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils
From 2003 and it's been linked here many times. It's from the early days of the 5W20 changeover before there was a lot of long term data and when chicken-little articles were all the rage. But , yeah, it doesn't have much relevance to this topic. Wear is not the issue with the Modulars, it's more a case of a poor design and the various bandaids people use to eliminate an annoying noise.
Wear not the problem? Apparently some posters on this topic would disagree. I was attempting to help some individuals on the viscosity situation so I'm not concerned on link analysis of how many times an article was hyperlinked.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: Challenger71
Somewhat related article http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils
From 2003 and it's been linked here many times. It's from the early days of the 5W20 changeover before there was a lot of long term data and when chicken-little articles were all the rage. But , yeah, it doesn't have much relevance to this topic. Wear is not the issue with the Modulars, it's more a case of a poor design and the various bandaids people use to eliminate an annoying noise.
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Originally Posted By: Challenger71
Posted circa 2003 yet still available which strongly indicates it remains a viable issue. Wear not the problem? Apparently some posters on this topic would disagree. I was attempting to help some individuals on the viscosity situation so I'm not concerned on link analysis of how many times an article was hyperlinked.
Helping out is a good thing and we should all do that where and when we can--definitely nothing wrong with that. From the tagline of the article - "The purpose of this article is to challenge conventional wisdom, particularly concerning modern (GF-3 ILSAC/API Starburst) engine oils." The problem with this article is that it is now virtually irrelevant since the API standard the article is based upon is obsolete (twice over). GF-5 is the "modern" oil standard and many things have changed since 2003 particularly in the science behind motor oils as have the tests which qualify them.
Posted circa 2003 yet still available which strongly indicates it remains a viable issue. Wear not the problem? Apparently some posters on this topic would disagree. I was attempting to help some individuals on the viscosity situation so I'm not concerned on link analysis of how many times an article was hyperlinked.
Helping out is a good thing and we should all do that where and when we can--definitely nothing wrong with that. From the tagline of the article - "The purpose of this article is to challenge conventional wisdom, particularly concerning modern (GF-3 ILSAC/API Starburst) engine oils." The problem with this article is that it is now virtually irrelevant since the API standard the article is based upon is obsolete (twice over). GF-5 is the "modern" oil standard and many things have changed since 2003 particularly in the science behind motor oils as have the tests which qualify them.
One thing to note on Ford Modular V8's is that the idler pullies are loud, as well as the hydraulic power steering pump. I would not be surprised if the noise produced by these components is mistaken for an internal engine sound. I recently replaced three worn idler pullies on my 2008 F150 4.6L and that solved my noise issue (especially on cold starts).
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Quiet is ALWAYS better. Quiet means the mechanical device, in this case a Ford Modular V8, is getting lubricated properly. Stay with the 10W-40.
So somehow an oil that was never spec'ed for the engine lubricates better than the oil that was? More likely, the heavier oil is masking the sound, but that has little to do with lack of lubrication that is miraculously being cured with a heavier viscosity.
Yes.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Quiet is ALWAYS better. Quiet means the mechanical device, in this case a Ford Modular V8, is getting lubricated properly. Stay with the 10W-40.
So somehow an oil that was never spec'ed for the engine lubricates better than the oil that was? More likely, the heavier oil is masking the sound, but that has little to do with lack of lubrication that is miraculously being cured with a heavier viscosity.
Yes.
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Quiet is ALWAYS better. Quiet means the mechanical device, in this case a Ford Modular V8, is getting lubricated properly. Stay with the 10W-40.
So somehow an oil that was never spec'ed for the engine lubricates better than the oil that was? More likely, the heavier oil is masking the sound, but that has little to do with lack of lubrication that is miraculously being cured with a heavier viscosity.
You guys are a hoot, if we knew the REAL story it's be more like(corporate to the engineers), you guys are going to have to make this work with that CAFE oil we use these days...
As as mask that's also a hoot, if it's a mechanical issue that's corrected by the 10W-40 that's a fix as far as I'm concerned... A thicker oil will NOT cover a sound unless it's keeping two metal components from contacting, and in no way is just muffling the sound...
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Quiet is ALWAYS better. Quiet means the mechanical device, in this case a Ford Modular V8, is getting lubricated properly. Stay with the 10W-40.
So somehow an oil that was never spec'ed for the engine lubricates better than the oil that was? More likely, the heavier oil is masking the sound, but that has little to do with lack of lubrication that is miraculously being cured with a heavier viscosity.
You guys are a hoot, if we knew the REAL story it's be more like(corporate to the engineers), you guys are going to have to make this work with that CAFE oil we use these days...
As as mask that's also a hoot, if it's a mechanical issue that's corrected by the 10W-40 that's a fix as far as I'm concerned... A thicker oil will NOT cover a sound unless it's keeping two metal components from contacting, and in no way is just muffling the sound...
Even if we accept the idea that the non-speced oil lubricates better, is it worth it? The difference can be statistically significant, but immeasurable to the average person.
We do have to remember that engine longevity isn't usually a problem these days. That's been solved years ago, and seems to hold true whether one is using a reasonable grade, whether ideal or specified or otherwise.
Carmakers and oil companies can measure much more than we can and much more accurately. They can demonstrate fuel savings in using lighter oils that we cannot detect. That doesn't mean the fuel savings aren't there.
On the other hand, how many of us have worn out engines? Even in the taxi fleet days, it wasn't an issue, and we used 30 grades and lighter, all resource conserving ILSAC stuff. We retired vehicles with 1,000,000 km on them, and it wasn't because of engine issues.
We do have to remember that engine longevity isn't usually a problem these days. That's been solved years ago, and seems to hold true whether one is using a reasonable grade, whether ideal or specified or otherwise.
Carmakers and oil companies can measure much more than we can and much more accurately. They can demonstrate fuel savings in using lighter oils that we cannot detect. That doesn't mean the fuel savings aren't there.
On the other hand, how many of us have worn out engines? Even in the taxi fleet days, it wasn't an issue, and we used 30 grades and lighter, all resource conserving ILSAC stuff. We retired vehicles with 1,000,000 km on them, and it wasn't because of engine issues.
Contrary to popular belief, Viscosity is a necessary element of lubrication. If an oil is too thin for a specific application, it won't lubricate properly. If an engine runs quieter with a thicker oil, it's not because it's being insulated from sound by fiberglass insulation, it's because it's being lubricated properly. Surface A and Surface B are being separated from each other by the thicker oil. The engineers at Ford specified 5W-20 for that engine because they thought they could squeeze another .00001 miles per gallon out of the truck to keep the EPA happy. What these engineers should do is come up with a way to make the vehicle lighter for increased fuel economy instead of filling up the engine with WD-40.
I think a few people here don't understand how the cam phasers work on the Ford modular engines and why they make noise. And I'll repeat that a heavier oil doesn't always make the noise go away, nor does the benign form of the noise cause long term wear or reliability issues. This is why Ford sent out that Oasis message (not a TSB, which is a more critical notification). Please take the time to read the message link above, which states the noise is "normal" but that "critical" owners could "elect" to install the 10W40 to "reduce" the noise. When the Ford VCT fails, which is unfortunately more often than it should, a heavier oil would not prevent nor cure the problem. It isn't a lubrication issue. The heavier oil merely masks some the benign noise.... sometimes. Stop trying to turn this into a debate about 5W20 vs 10W30 (or whatever) oil. It isn't that and if you want to have that silly debate again, take it to a new thread. Please.
Originally Posted By: KD0AXS
Originally Posted By: Tuffy1760
I find this post useless without the year of this 5.4...
its your vehicle you can put in whatever you want... I switched to RP 5W-30 (from 5w-20 dino) engine noise and oil use got alot better.
Doesn't look like the OP has returned to answer this, but we're talking about the 3V 5.4, so it's a 2004+ F-150 or 2005+ F-250/350.
04 3V 5.4 105,000mi.
Originally Posted By: Tuffy1760
I find this post useless without the year of this 5.4...
its your vehicle you can put in whatever you want... I switched to RP 5W-30 (from 5w-20 dino) engine noise and oil use got alot better.
Doesn't look like the OP has returned to answer this, but we're talking about the 3V 5.4, so it's a 2004+ F-150 or 2005+ F-250/350.
04 3V 5.4 105,000mi.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I think a few people here don't understand how the cam phasers work on the Ford modular engines and why they make noise. And I'll repeat that a heavier oil doesn't always make the noise go away, nor does the benign form of the noise cause long term wear or reliability issues.
This sounds much like the issue with Nissan/Infiniti and the VVEL noise that happened for one or two model years. The real root appeared to be an electrical glitch. In any case, fixes included ECU remapping, parts replacement, and plenty of recommendations to buy an expensive, nifty oil. And, I'm sure many people thought their problem was solved by switching oils.
I think a few people here don't understand how the cam phasers work on the Ford modular engines and why they make noise. And I'll repeat that a heavier oil doesn't always make the noise go away, nor does the benign form of the noise cause long term wear or reliability issues.
This sounds much like the issue with Nissan/Infiniti and the VVEL noise that happened for one or two model years. The real root appeared to be an electrical glitch. In any case, fixes included ECU remapping, parts replacement, and plenty of recommendations to buy an expensive, nifty oil. And, I'm sure many people thought their problem was solved by switching oils.
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Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Contrary to popular belief, Viscosity is a necessary element of lubrication. If an oil is too thin for a specific application, it won't lubricate properly. If an engine runs quieter with a thicker oil, it's not because it's being insulated from sound by fiberglass insulation, it's because it's being lubricated properly. Surface A and Surface B are being separated from each other by the thicker oil. The engineers at Ford specified 5W-20 for that engine because they thought they could squeeze another .00001 miles per gallon out of the truck to keep the EPA happy. What these engineers should do is come up with a way to make the vehicle lighter for increased fuel economy instead of filling up the engine with WD-40.
No dispute there, but oil viscosity (thin, thick, or otherwise) is not the issue with the cam phasers in a Ford modular.
Contrary to popular belief, Viscosity is a necessary element of lubrication. If an oil is too thin for a specific application, it won't lubricate properly. If an engine runs quieter with a thicker oil, it's not because it's being insulated from sound by fiberglass insulation, it's because it's being lubricated properly. Surface A and Surface B are being separated from each other by the thicker oil. The engineers at Ford specified 5W-20 for that engine because they thought they could squeeze another .00001 miles per gallon out of the truck to keep the EPA happy. What these engineers should do is come up with a way to make the vehicle lighter for increased fuel economy instead of filling up the engine with WD-40.
No dispute there, but oil viscosity (thin, thick, or otherwise) is not the issue with the cam phasers in a Ford modular.
A bad cam phaser will tick anytime below 1200 rpm not just on tip in as the ssm is stating. That's why I said the bulletin was not for the typical phaser noise. Forget about the cam phaser tick, forget about the cam phaser in general. The real problem with the older 3 valves is the timing chain tensioner seal. When it goes you will hear a real racket. Then when the chain slapping the guide finally breaks it you will have severe driveability issues. Thicker oil is not gonna help you there.
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