Hello. I'm a new forum poster, so I apologize if this has been previously covered. We recently our 1999 Saab 9-3 with ~54K mi to an indepenent Saab shop for 60K major service and for a coolant leak. They found the coolant leak coming from the head gasket, and pulled the valve cover to see if they could fix with a head bolt retorque or if the head gasket needed to be replaced (they had previously seen a similar issue that was fixed with a bolt retorque). When they pulled the valve cover they found a lot of sludge, and were concerned that if the head was removed it would disturb the sludge and it would start clogging the oil pickup. I thought I had dodged a bullet when the head bolts were indeed found to be loose and were retorqued, but when the engine was buttoned up and restarted the engine oil light came on within a couple of minutes and a clicking sound was heard in the head. They then pulled the oil pan, cleaned the pan and pickup (pan also had a lot of sludge), blew out the oil cooler and lines, and cleaned out the oil filter check valve. They started it up and the same thing happened within a few minutes. They are now recommending that I pull the pan again to clean the pickup and pull the cylinder head and clean it, but they can't guarantee that we won't have to pull the pan another 5-6 times until sludge stops flaking off and clogging the pickup. So, what does everyone here recommend? It sounds like I need to have the pan pulled at least once more to restore oil pressure, but should I also have the head pulled, or should I just hope that oil pressure can be maintained long enough to run an Auto-Rx treatment? Thanks in advance.
Next steps for sludge removal? (long)
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One thing you could have the mechanics try, and it's something I installed permanently on my '98 Passat 1.8t when I changed the oil pump because of sludge:
Have them cut a piece of metal screen (I used metal screen door screen material) and shape it around the oil intake screen bulb, and carefully and securely wire it in place. The idea is to create a large surface area pre-screen for the oil intake screen. When sludge gets stuck in it there is enough surface area that oil can still get around the sludge. This technique may be able to get you through either an Auto-Rx or even (grimace) one of those quickie flushes.
Have them cut a piece of metal screen (I used metal screen door screen material) and shape it around the oil intake screen bulb, and carefully and securely wire it in place. The idea is to create a large surface area pre-screen for the oil intake screen. When sludge gets stuck in it there is enough surface area that oil can still get around the sludge. This technique may be able to get you through either an Auto-Rx or even (grimace) one of those quickie flushes.
Hi Eric,
Thanks for the idea. I spoke with the shop this morning and they looked at the oil pickup and pan configuration amd didn't think that a screen would fit in there, but it did get them thinking. What they suggested was to drill and tap a hole directly under the oil pump pickup and install a second drain plug. That way, if the screen does get plugged again we can quickly access it through the hole without having to drop the pan. Hopefully it doesn't plug and I can get through the Auto-Rx cycles, but if it does plug at least it won't cost me $500 every time to drop the pan.
Thanks for the idea. I spoke with the shop this morning and they looked at the oil pickup and pan configuration amd didn't think that a screen would fit in there, but it did get them thinking. What they suggested was to drill and tap a hole directly under the oil pump pickup and install a second drain plug. That way, if the screen does get plugged again we can quickly access it through the hole without having to drop the pan. Hopefully it doesn't plug and I can get through the Auto-Rx cycles, but if it does plug at least it won't cost me $500 every time to drop the pan.
You are very lucky to have a shop that will think "out of the box". Most wouldn't even consider things like this.
Excellent idea with the drain plug, and definitely "outside the box". Every car should have one of those. Once you have that plug you can dump the ARX clean oil yourself, run it through a screen to remove particles, save it, clean the pickup screen, and pour the oil back in.
So the problem started after just the head bolts were touched???
Did they clean the valve cover?
Are you using new oil/filter every time?
Do you have any pictures?
If a simple oil change can loosen up all the sludge, I want that oil.
Also, if oil is not draining back quickly enough, sometimes overfilling a little will help prevent "bubble lubrication".
Make sure the shop uses a flexible eye scope and looks at the pickup, if possible, from the normal oil drain hole prior to drilling more holes.
I love to know the CAUSE of the sludge. Lack of maintenance? abuse? cheap oil?.....
I'd also get a second opinion. Something doesn't sound kosher.
Did they clean the valve cover?
Are you using new oil/filter every time?
Do you have any pictures?
If a simple oil change can loosen up all the sludge, I want that oil.
Also, if oil is not draining back quickly enough, sometimes overfilling a little will help prevent "bubble lubrication".
Make sure the shop uses a flexible eye scope and looks at the pickup, if possible, from the normal oil drain hole prior to drilling more holes.
I love to know the CAUSE of the sludge. Lack of maintenance? abuse? cheap oil?.....
I'd also get a second opinion. Something doesn't sound kosher.
"So the problem started after just the head bolts were touched???
Did they clean the valve cover?
Are you using new oil/filter every time?
Do you have any pictures?"
Yes, they did hot tank the valve cover when they removed it. The only work on the top end was to loosen and retorque the head bolts. I didn't snap any pictures, but if the valve cover comes off again I'll be sure to do that. As far as maintenance goes...well it's my wife's car. I guess I wasn't as diligent in ensuring that she got her oil changed as I should have been.
"If a simple oil change can loosen up all the sludge, I want that oil. "
I think it was the poking and prodding (and laughing) by all the techs in the shop that loosened a good deal of it. When I went in to look at it, they scraped off a few good-sized chunks with a screwdriver to show me. That can't have helped the situation.
"Make sure the shop uses a flexible eye scope and looks at the pickup, if possible, from the normal oil drain hole prior to drilling more holes."
Unfortunately, too late for that. They pulled the pan this morning to clean the pickup again, as it was clogged and the engine had lost oil pressure again.
"I love to know the CAUSE of the sludge. Lack of maintenance? abuse? cheap oil?.....
I'd also get a second opinion. Something doesn't sound kosher. "
I'd love to say that it's a poor engine design, but oil changes at 10K intervals at the local quick-lube didn't help matters. I'd agree that the whole episode sounds a little surreal (and my checking account isn't happy either). Not sure what to make of it, but it's pretty hard to fake the sludge that I saw on that head. The timing of the oil pickup blockage immediately after the bolt retorque is curious, but they've been pretty upfront with the charges and options, and they were the ones that came up with the second drain plug as an alternative to a complete engine teardown and cleaning (or replacement engine).
Did they clean the valve cover?
Are you using new oil/filter every time?
Do you have any pictures?"
Yes, they did hot tank the valve cover when they removed it. The only work on the top end was to loosen and retorque the head bolts. I didn't snap any pictures, but if the valve cover comes off again I'll be sure to do that. As far as maintenance goes...well it's my wife's car. I guess I wasn't as diligent in ensuring that she got her oil changed as I should have been.
"If a simple oil change can loosen up all the sludge, I want that oil. "
I think it was the poking and prodding (and laughing) by all the techs in the shop that loosened a good deal of it. When I went in to look at it, they scraped off a few good-sized chunks with a screwdriver to show me. That can't have helped the situation.
"Make sure the shop uses a flexible eye scope and looks at the pickup, if possible, from the normal oil drain hole prior to drilling more holes."
Unfortunately, too late for that. They pulled the pan this morning to clean the pickup again, as it was clogged and the engine had lost oil pressure again.
"I love to know the CAUSE of the sludge. Lack of maintenance? abuse? cheap oil?.....
I'd also get a second opinion. Something doesn't sound kosher. "
I'd love to say that it's a poor engine design, but oil changes at 10K intervals at the local quick-lube didn't help matters. I'd agree that the whole episode sounds a little surreal (and my checking account isn't happy either). Not sure what to make of it, but it's pretty hard to fake the sludge that I saw on that head. The timing of the oil pickup blockage immediately after the bolt retorque is curious, but they've been pretty upfront with the charges and options, and they were the ones that came up with the second drain plug as an alternative to a complete engine teardown and cleaning (or replacement engine).
MolaKule
Staff member
Coolant leaks can really sludge an engine if left unrepaired.
I think if I had removed the pan, I would have removed the oil pump as well, considering the amount of sludge found. Most likely, the oil pump pickup tube was blocked or partially blocked, hence the dry starts.
But can they not pull the valve cover and run a brush down the return holes, or has the sludge turned to coke?
Added: Too bad you don't have some LC to pour onto the heads for good soak.
I think if I had removed the pan, I would have removed the oil pump as well, considering the amount of sludge found. Most likely, the oil pump pickup tube was blocked or partially blocked, hence the dry starts.
But can they not pull the valve cover and run a brush down the return holes, or has the sludge turned to coke?
Added: Too bad you don't have some LC to pour onto the heads for good soak.
"I think if I had removed the pan, I would have removed the oil pump as well, considering the amount of sludge found. Most likely, the oil pump pickup tube was blocked or partially blocked, hence the dry starts."
I'll have to double-check, but I believe they did pull the pickup and screen and clean those. I don't think they pulled the actual pump. After the second plug, they did hot tank the oil pan and manually clean off as much sludge as they could off the bottom end.
"But can they not pull the valve cover and run a brush down the return holes, or has the sludge turned to coke?"
It is pretty coked, but in addition, at the time the valve cover was off we were still hoping to close it up and pray that nothing came loose. By the time we realized that sludge was now circulating and plugging up the pump pickup the valve cover was back on.
"Added: Too bad you don't have some LC to pour onto the heads for good soak."
Pardon the ignorance, but as I said I'm new here. What's LC? How would I go about using this in conjunction with Auto-Rx?
I'll have to double-check, but I believe they did pull the pickup and screen and clean those. I don't think they pulled the actual pump. After the second plug, they did hot tank the oil pan and manually clean off as much sludge as they could off the bottom end.
"But can they not pull the valve cover and run a brush down the return holes, or has the sludge turned to coke?"
It is pretty coked, but in addition, at the time the valve cover was off we were still hoping to close it up and pray that nothing came loose. By the time we realized that sludge was now circulating and plugging up the pump pickup the valve cover was back on.
"Added: Too bad you don't have some LC to pour onto the heads for good soak."
Pardon the ignorance, but as I said I'm new here. What's LC? How would I go about using this in conjunction with Auto-Rx?
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Once they scored the sludge and penetrated the various layers of it ...it will bleed and errode until it's all disolved. The fresh oil will undermine the sludge mound and knock off the big chunks that are still attached to the "skin". I doubt that you'll have a clean oil change for quite some time. It's just a shame that the pickup is so fine that it gets clogged so easily.
Perhaps, in this case (I mean the bomb has already gone off here), you may need a more draconian solution to cleaning this up. Maybe a riske heavy solvent based flush will disintegrate those "flakes" and allow you to actually filter them out.
Perhaps, in this case (I mean the bomb has already gone off here), you may need a more draconian solution to cleaning this up. Maybe a riske heavy solvent based flush will disintegrate those "flakes" and allow you to actually filter them out.
MolaKule
Staff member
LC is an engine cleaner and oxidation moderator.
http://www.lubecontrol.com/
I have cleaned a lot of carboned-up engines and parts by using repeated applications of full strength LC poured directly on the heads, soaking, etc.
Just a recommendation, but Auto-Rx would be a good thing use after you get the engine surfaces cleaned. I shudder to think what the ring pack might look like.
http://www.lubecontrol.com/
I have cleaned a lot of carboned-up engines and parts by using repeated applications of full strength LC poured directly on the heads, soaking, etc.
Just a recommendation, but Auto-Rx would be a good thing use after you get the engine surfaces cleaned. I shudder to think what the ring pack might look like.
I'd try a 5-15 minute cold engine flush.
If the oil comes out looking like chocolate syrup, I'd do it again, and again. Its quicker than removing the pan.
A couple cases of the cheapest oil(one weight higher than needed), a couple of cheap filters(like wallyworld brand), and a couple different brands of flushes should get the ball rolling. These are available at most department and autopart stores.
Also, some of the quickee lube joints have an engine flush surcharge that works the same way.
After that, start whatever cleaning program you want.
There's also the gallons kerosene cleaning method. Open the drainplug with a big bucket under it, pull the valvecover, grab a soft brush, and with 2nd person pouring the kero, clean the engine.
But remember, 10k quicklube OCI's is a ticket to disaster. You have just learned your le$$on.
Stick with synthetics and more frequent OCI's in all your cars from now on to prevent wallet thinning.
Prodding/laughing/showing you the problem/experience(head retightening) are good enough reasons to stay with that shop. They seem to be trying to help you. I had my doubts but it seems that coincidence is to blame for your problems, not the shop!
If the oil comes out looking like chocolate syrup, I'd do it again, and again. Its quicker than removing the pan.
A couple cases of the cheapest oil(one weight higher than needed), a couple of cheap filters(like wallyworld brand), and a couple different brands of flushes should get the ball rolling. These are available at most department and autopart stores.
Also, some of the quickee lube joints have an engine flush surcharge that works the same way.
After that, start whatever cleaning program you want.
There's also the gallons kerosene cleaning method. Open the drainplug with a big bucket under it, pull the valvecover, grab a soft brush, and with 2nd person pouring the kero, clean the engine.
But remember, 10k quicklube OCI's is a ticket to disaster. You have just learned your le$$on.
Stick with synthetics and more frequent OCI's in all your cars from now on to prevent wallet thinning.
Prodding/laughing/showing you the problem/experience(head retightening) are good enough reasons to stay with that shop. They seem to be trying to help you. I had my doubts but it seems that coincidence is to blame for your problems, not the shop!
Molakule has an excellent, early post around here on using LC to do a clean-up (as well as another product, Neutra).
I have used the "hot soak, crank it over after an hour" LC "trick" on several 25-35 year old oem motors. Cleaned up a LOT of stuff, and then used A-Rx to keep after the problem.
One engine, a FORD L6-200 (62k), had the darkest, deepest "red" varnish I'd ever seen. Worse than what has been posted in a photo on this site. Did the LC soak, and have almost finished "rinse" phase of A-Rx cycle (has taken 1.5 years due to low use).
Engine starts more easily in cold weather, idle is more stable (FUEL POWER a big help here), and I feel confident that these products have cleaned up the interior of this motor.
Fuel mileage is 18-19 mpg versus original 15-17. Needs a lot less throttle to accomplish same work which leads me to believe that rings are in better shape than before, and seal is improved.
I have used the "hot soak, crank it over after an hour" LC "trick" on several 25-35 year old oem motors. Cleaned up a LOT of stuff, and then used A-Rx to keep after the problem.
One engine, a FORD L6-200 (62k), had the darkest, deepest "red" varnish I'd ever seen. Worse than what has been posted in a photo on this site. Did the LC soak, and have almost finished "rinse" phase of A-Rx cycle (has taken 1.5 years due to low use).
Engine starts more easily in cold weather, idle is more stable (FUEL POWER a big help here), and I feel confident that these products have cleaned up the interior of this motor.
Fuel mileage is 18-19 mpg versus original 15-17. Needs a lot less throttle to accomplish same work which leads me to believe that rings are in better shape than before, and seal is improved.
WOW, I would definately order a one gallon botlte of Lube Control. I would use Motorcraft 5W20 oil from Walmart at $1.42 a quart or M1 0W20. I would use 16 onces of Lube Control in this first application.
My reasoning is this. The 5W20 and 0W20 is going to be much thiner then what you would normaly use. The thiner oil is going to flow better especialy in obstructed areas.
The Lube Control is going to break down that sludge and is a 20-25 wt. fluid and will not comprimise your oil like kerosine or naptha etc... would. I would try to get 500-1000 miles on this set up. I would drain it out at 1000 miles max and put on a new filter, fresh oil of the proper viscosity and the auto-rx for 1800 miles.
I would repeat the lube control cleaning cycle. You will have plenty of lube control left over from first application. I would continue to use Lube Control at 1/2 the treat rate on the lable for the next 3-4 oil changes.
Their should be plenty of oil galley plugs that they can pull and brushed out.
P.S. Their is one other method that might help but it is not advised as it is a lot risker then the above aproach. You can add one whole can of B-12 Chemtool to your crankcase and run the engine at fast idel with fresh cheap dino like walmart 5W30 or 10W30 for thirty minutes. This is double the recomended concentration of b-12 adn double the time of normal application. If the engine is as sludged as you say any possable damage from B-12 Chemtools agressive chemistry is the least of your worrys!! B-12 Chemtool comes in pint metal cans and is about $2.47 a can. It can be found at Walmart and Autozone.
[ September 10, 2004, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
My reasoning is this. The 5W20 and 0W20 is going to be much thiner then what you would normaly use. The thiner oil is going to flow better especialy in obstructed areas.
The Lube Control is going to break down that sludge and is a 20-25 wt. fluid and will not comprimise your oil like kerosine or naptha etc... would. I would try to get 500-1000 miles on this set up. I would drain it out at 1000 miles max and put on a new filter, fresh oil of the proper viscosity and the auto-rx for 1800 miles.
I would repeat the lube control cleaning cycle. You will have plenty of lube control left over from first application. I would continue to use Lube Control at 1/2 the treat rate on the lable for the next 3-4 oil changes.
Their should be plenty of oil galley plugs that they can pull and brushed out.
P.S. Their is one other method that might help but it is not advised as it is a lot risker then the above aproach. You can add one whole can of B-12 Chemtool to your crankcase and run the engine at fast idel with fresh cheap dino like walmart 5W30 or 10W30 for thirty minutes. This is double the recomended concentration of b-12 adn double the time of normal application. If the engine is as sludged as you say any possable damage from B-12 Chemtools agressive chemistry is the least of your worrys!! B-12 Chemtool comes in pint metal cans and is about $2.47 a can. It can be found at Walmart and Autozone.
[ September 10, 2004, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
Given the oil pump pickup's propensity to plug, shouldn't I be concerned that anything that will break up sludge quickly will dislodge chunks large enough to plug the pickup screen again? The benefit to Auto-Rx, as I see it, is that it works slowly enough that what it dislodges will be small enough to pass through the pickup screen and into the oil filter. My fear is that if I try to speed the process I'll end up screwing myself. My mechanic has said basically the same thing. Thoughts?
I would start doing 500 mi ocis w/ filter changes. After a few thousand miles start a triple arx run and hope for the best. you could always yank the motor out and go thru it but that wouldn't be worth it imho.
I used to help my dad in his auto repair shop about 20 years ago when I was a teen.
We would get alot of cars in that the do-it-yourself oil change car owners would use a strong engine flush and wind up clogging the oil screen.
Dad would pull the oil pan and take it over to the welding-machine shop and have them cut out and install a 4 or 5 inch drain plug under the oil pump screen.
Then we would pour in more engine flush. Run the engine to break sludge loose. Drain the oil and strain it. Clean the oil screen and put the oil and its flush right back in after we filtered the junk out. I remember doing a engine about a dozen times each day for two days till we got it clean.
If you are going to flush your engine with the harsh chemicals, be sure to install a large drain plug so you can get it out.
M4L
We would get alot of cars in that the do-it-yourself oil change car owners would use a strong engine flush and wind up clogging the oil screen.
Dad would pull the oil pan and take it over to the welding-machine shop and have them cut out and install a 4 or 5 inch drain plug under the oil pump screen.
Then we would pour in more engine flush. Run the engine to break sludge loose. Drain the oil and strain it. Clean the oil screen and put the oil and its flush right back in after we filtered the junk out. I remember doing a engine about a dozen times each day for two days till we got it clean.
If you are going to flush your engine with the harsh chemicals, be sure to install a large drain plug so you can get it out.
M4L
jkat, you are pluging up the pickup screen with plain oil and no additives. If they have clean out the sludge from the pan, valve covers and head area then the remaining sludge is in the oil galleys and non accessable surface areas of the block.
You said that they hot tanked the valve covers and the oil pan after mechanicly cleaning it! They also cleaned all visable areas correct? THey have had the pan of 5 time or so? The areas that remain can not contain large pieces of sludge. A single large piece actualy blocks less of your pickup screen then a million smaller pieces.
I fear that the repeated low oil pressure and low oil volume that you keep experinceing are the most dangerious symptom you are dealing with. You first have to have reliable oil circulation in order for Auto-RX to do it's thing. If things are as bad as you have described your bearings will not survive 1800 miles of low oil pressure and volume!!
I understand the delima!!! At this point after they have mechanicly removed a large portion of the sludge it is anyones guess how things are going to turnout or what the best course is. In my opion keeping the oil flowing at all costs is the number one concern!
You said that they hot tanked the valve covers and the oil pan after mechanicly cleaning it! They also cleaned all visable areas correct? THey have had the pan of 5 time or so? The areas that remain can not contain large pieces of sludge. A single large piece actualy blocks less of your pickup screen then a million smaller pieces.
I fear that the repeated low oil pressure and low oil volume that you keep experinceing are the most dangerious symptom you are dealing with. You first have to have reliable oil circulation in order for Auto-RX to do it's thing. If things are as bad as you have described your bearings will not survive 1800 miles of low oil pressure and volume!!
I understand the delima!!! At this point after they have mechanicly removed a large portion of the sludge it is anyones guess how things are going to turnout or what the best course is. In my opion keeping the oil flowing at all costs is the number one concern!
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Yes, your concern is justified ..but, as I said before, the bomb has already gone off ..YOU ARE getting larger flakes without using anything. Therefore ..you've got little to lose at this point in the event by using a strong solvent type cleaner. IMHO ..the time for caution has long past. You're now in a crap shoot on saving yourself a lot of money.
If I read your posts well enoungh ..they actually didn't clean the top of the head other than a few screw drivers full...at least you didn't confirm this. Even if they did a decent job ..there is going to be stuff that they missed that has been disturbed.
Can we take that to mean that a decent amount is still there to leach and be eroded by the normal oil flow??
Btw- when you start it up after a "cleaning" ..do you/they just idle it and then in a few minutes it spontaniously clogs the screen??
A 4 or 5 inch drain plug????????????
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