New Viscosity Modifiers from Infineum
- Thread starter buster
- Start date
- Status
Interesting material; thanks for sharing the article. Now...when and where (products) will we see this technology debut?
A 35 is considered low VI
A medium VI is around 80
Over 110 is considered high VI.
Most oils that are in the 160> range are very high VI oils.
V=100 (L-U)/(L-U)
V indicates the viscosity index, U the kinematic viscosity at 40 °C (104 °F), and L & H are various values based on the kinematic viscosity at 100 °C (212 °F) available in ASTM D2270.
A medium VI is around 80
Over 110 is considered high VI.
Most oils that are in the 160> range are very high VI oils.
V=100 (L-U)/(L-U)
V indicates the viscosity index, U the kinematic viscosity at 40 °C (104 °F), and L & H are various values based on the kinematic viscosity at 100 °C (212 °F) available in ASTM D2270.
An interesting piece.
We know the OEM 0W-20s are using this technology now but the reference to the 5w30 grade caught my attention since no one other than Sustina (their 5w30 has a 194 VI) is formulating a very high VI 30wt oil yet.
Maybe it's just a matter of time.
So Infineum calls their very high VI polymethacrylates (PMA) star like polymer VM "SV Star".
Lubrizol calls theirs "Asteric":
http://www.lubrizol.com/AstericViscosityModifiers/HighVIFluidEfficiency.pdf
Evonik also have a very high VI PMA with a "comb" like structure.
Don't know if there are any more.
We know the OEM 0W-20s are using this technology now but the reference to the 5w30 grade caught my attention since no one other than Sustina (their 5w30 has a 194 VI) is formulating a very high VI 30wt oil yet.
Maybe it's just a matter of time.
So Infineum calls their very high VI polymethacrylates (PMA) star like polymer VM "SV Star".
Lubrizol calls theirs "Asteric":
http://www.lubrizol.com/AstericViscosityModifiers/HighVIFluidEfficiency.pdf
Evonik also have a very high VI PMA with a "comb" like structure.
Don't know if there are any more.
So for those that can't wait for a reasonably priced very high VI 0W/5w30 there is the following 203 VI 0W-30:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/caterham-blend-mobil-0w40-sm-tgmo-0w20-sn.198118/
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/caterham-blend-mobil-0w40-sm-tgmo-0w20-sn.198118/
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
So for those that can't wait for a reasonably priced very high VI 0W/5w30 there is the following 203 VI 0W-30:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/caterham-blend-mobil-0w40-sm-tgmo-0w20-sn.198118/
Hehehe.
Touché
So for those that can't wait for a reasonably priced very high VI 0W/5w30 there is the following 203 VI 0W-30:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/caterham-blend-mobil-0w40-sm-tgmo-0w20-sn.198118/
Hehehe.
Touché
Originally Posted By: Shannow
When are these sorts of additives going to be available OTC to the backyard oil chemist ?
Seems pretty wasteful to have to buy a 0W-40 to get pressure back when a few ounces of these would do the trick.
You'll have think it though a bit better than that.
Even if we could get some of these SV Star or Asteric polymer additives, what light oil are we going to add it to that doesn't already have it? There isn't one.
All we could do is hire the services of Tom or Mola to blend with some high VI light base oils to make something attractive and I'm sure they could but the cost would likely be prohibitive.
When are these sorts of additives going to be available OTC to the backyard oil chemist ?
Seems pretty wasteful to have to buy a 0W-40 to get pressure back when a few ounces of these would do the trick.
You'll have think it though a bit better than that.
Even if we could get some of these SV Star or Asteric polymer additives, what light oil are we going to add it to that doesn't already have it? There isn't one.
All we could do is hire the services of Tom or Mola to blend with some high VI light base oils to make something attractive and I'm sure they could but the cost would likely be prohibitive.
My guess would be once you start seeing M1/PU/Amsoil having a VI above 200 is when you know the VM'ers are extremely stable and won't break down under the harshest conditions. Mobil's own testing showed more varnish, although not much, with their 0w oils vs 5w grades. Redline does not use them in their racing oils and neither does Amsoil. Amsoil doesn't use any in their 0w20 ASM grade either I believe.
We really don't know much about TGMO other than the VI because there is no PDS. It's surprisingly shear stable for an oil with that high of a viscosity index. Other than that, no one knows how good it really is.
I'd like to see the results of TGMO in the Vegas study Mobil and Amsoil did. That would tell me something tangible.
We really don't know much about TGMO other than the VI because there is no PDS. It's surprisingly shear stable for an oil with that high of a viscosity index. Other than that, no one knows how good it really is.
I'd like to see the results of TGMO in the Vegas study Mobil and Amsoil did. That would tell me something tangible.
Originally Posted By: buster
My guess would be once you start seeing M1/PU/Amsoil having a VI above 200 is when you know the VM'ers are extremely stable and won't break down under the harshest conditions. Mobil's own testing showed more varnish, although not much, with their 0w oils vs 5w grades. Redline does not use them in their racing oils and neither does Amsoil. Amsoil doesn't use any in their 0w20 ASM grade either I believe.
We really don't know much about TGMO other than the VI because there is no PDS. It's surprisingly shear stable for an oil with that high of a viscosity index. Other than that, no one knows how good it really is.
I'd like to see the results of TGMO in the Vegas study Mobil and Amsoil did. That would tell me something tangible.
Mobil Pennzoil and Amsoil must have their reasons for not having a VI over 200. I've reads lots of opinions as to why, I haven't seen any factual data however. If its out there I missed it, maybe someone can provide a link I'd love to know their reasoning.
My guess would be once you start seeing M1/PU/Amsoil having a VI above 200 is when you know the VM'ers are extremely stable and won't break down under the harshest conditions. Mobil's own testing showed more varnish, although not much, with their 0w oils vs 5w grades. Redline does not use them in their racing oils and neither does Amsoil. Amsoil doesn't use any in their 0w20 ASM grade either I believe.
We really don't know much about TGMO other than the VI because there is no PDS. It's surprisingly shear stable for an oil with that high of a viscosity index. Other than that, no one knows how good it really is.
I'd like to see the results of TGMO in the Vegas study Mobil and Amsoil did. That would tell me something tangible.
Mobil Pennzoil and Amsoil must have their reasons for not having a VI over 200. I've reads lots of opinions as to why, I haven't seen any factual data however. If its out there I missed it, maybe someone can provide a link I'd love to know their reasoning.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
When are these sorts of additives going to be available OTC to the backyard oil chemist ?
Seems pretty wasteful to have to buy a 0W-40 to get pressure back when a few ounces of these would do the trick.
You'll have think it though a bit better than that.
Even if we could get some of these SV Star or Asteric polymer additives, what light oil are we going to add it to that doesn't already have it? There isn't one.
All we could do is hire the services of Tom or Mola to blend with some high VI light base oils to make something attractive and I'm sure they could but the cost would likely be prohibitive.
Gave you the scenario, someone diligently monitoring their OP and temperature gauges, having optimised their operational viscosity sees it start to go south...add a dash if VII seems more rational than introducing another whole additive pack...
Originally Posted By: Shannow
When are these sorts of additives going to be available OTC to the backyard oil chemist ?
Seems pretty wasteful to have to buy a 0W-40 to get pressure back when a few ounces of these would do the trick.
You'll have think it though a bit better than that.
Even if we could get some of these SV Star or Asteric polymer additives, what light oil are we going to add it to that doesn't already have it? There isn't one.
All we could do is hire the services of Tom or Mola to blend with some high VI light base oils to make something attractive and I'm sure they could but the cost would likely be prohibitive.
Gave you the scenario, someone diligently monitoring their OP and temperature gauges, having optimised their operational viscosity sees it start to go south...add a dash if VII seems more rational than introducing another whole additive pack...
Originally Posted By: buster
My guess would be once you start seeing M1/PU/Amsoil having a VI above 200 is when you know the VM'ers are extremely stable and won't break down under the harshest conditions. Mobil's own testing showed more varnish, although not much, with their 0w oils vs 5w grades. Redline does not use them in their racing oils and neither does Amsoil. Amsoil doesn't use any in their 0w20 ASM grade either I believe.
We really don't know much about TGMO other than the VI because there is no PDS. It's surprisingly shear stable for an oil with that high of a viscosity index. Other than that, no one knows how good it really is.
Your making some incorrect assumptions.
First, this new class of polymers actually requires less polymer to get a given effect (as mentioned in the article), which is likely why these oils are actually more shear stable than oils formulated with the commonly used olefin copolymers.
Mobil test of 0W and 5W oils you referred to did not include TGMO and other high VI 0W oils that use the new PMA polymers.
Leading edge technology does not come from small boutique formulators like Amsoil and Red Line that are just blenders quality oils and additives that are available from the major oil additive companies.
RL doesn't use polymer VMs in their old school low VI race oils, but more importantly Mobil does to make their 0w30 and 0w50 race oils.
We know a lot about TGMO from VOA's and a large number of used oil analysis.
The fact is, TGMO 0W-20 is an OEM oil that's been in the marketplace now for 5 years, under constant development in both the lab' and with feed back from millions of vehicles that are using it. That sort of makes your assertion that "we don't really know how good it is", as laughable.
My guess would be once you start seeing M1/PU/Amsoil having a VI above 200 is when you know the VM'ers are extremely stable and won't break down under the harshest conditions. Mobil's own testing showed more varnish, although not much, with their 0w oils vs 5w grades. Redline does not use them in their racing oils and neither does Amsoil. Amsoil doesn't use any in their 0w20 ASM grade either I believe.
We really don't know much about TGMO other than the VI because there is no PDS. It's surprisingly shear stable for an oil with that high of a viscosity index. Other than that, no one knows how good it really is.
Your making some incorrect assumptions.
First, this new class of polymers actually requires less polymer to get a given effect (as mentioned in the article), which is likely why these oils are actually more shear stable than oils formulated with the commonly used olefin copolymers.
Mobil test of 0W and 5W oils you referred to did not include TGMO and other high VI 0W oils that use the new PMA polymers.
Leading edge technology does not come from small boutique formulators like Amsoil and Red Line that are just blenders quality oils and additives that are available from the major oil additive companies.
RL doesn't use polymer VMs in their old school low VI race oils, but more importantly Mobil does to make their 0w30 and 0w50 race oils.
We know a lot about TGMO from VOA's and a large number of used oil analysis.
The fact is, TGMO 0W-20 is an OEM oil that's been in the marketplace now for 5 years, under constant development in both the lab' and with feed back from millions of vehicles that are using it. That sort of makes your assertion that "we don't really know how good it is", as laughable.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The fact is, TGMO 0W-20 is an OEM oil that's been in the marketplace now for 5 years, under constant development in both the lab' and with feed back from millions of vehicles that are using it. That sort of makes your assertion that "we don't really know how good it is", as laughable.
I know it's probably "eyes only" secrecy, but could you give us some snippets of this Toyota test programme ?
Are millions of cars being fitted with black boxes to record oil pressure (and temperature) under operation conditions with results beamed back to the lab so that the next batch is tweaeked ?
How do owners know if they've got the black box ?
Or are Toyota matching this black box data (or millions of customer surveys) with millions of used oil analysis (obviously flown back and performed in Japan, as undoubtedly the information would leak is it was any of the usual suspects).
If you can't give us some inside information on parameters of these tests on these millions of vehicle, I guess we'll have to withhold our laughter until we see the detail on Wikileaks.
The fact is, TGMO 0W-20 is an OEM oil that's been in the marketplace now for 5 years, under constant development in both the lab' and with feed back from millions of vehicles that are using it. That sort of makes your assertion that "we don't really know how good it is", as laughable.
I know it's probably "eyes only" secrecy, but could you give us some snippets of this Toyota test programme ?
Are millions of cars being fitted with black boxes to record oil pressure (and temperature) under operation conditions with results beamed back to the lab so that the next batch is tweaeked ?
How do owners know if they've got the black box ?
Or are Toyota matching this black box data (or millions of customer surveys) with millions of used oil analysis (obviously flown back and performed in Japan, as undoubtedly the information would leak is it was any of the usual suspects).
If you can't give us some inside information on parameters of these tests on these millions of vehicle, I guess we'll have to withhold our laughter until we see the detail on Wikileaks.
There is a ExxonMobil in lab video talking about the on going testing and development they do with their partners including GM, Porsche, Mercedes, Toyota, etc which I'm not going to bother to dig up.
Even the suggestion that these OEM oils are somehow not well tested when the reality is that they are tested to death (literally) seems uncharacteristically nieve.
Even the suggestion that these OEM oils are somehow not well tested when the reality is that they are tested to death (literally) seems uncharacteristically nieve.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
There is a ExxonMobil in lab video talking about the on going testing and development they do with their partners including GM, Porsche, Mercedes, Toyota, etc which I'm not going to bother to dig up.
Even the suggestion that these OEM oils are somehow not well tested when the reality is that they are tested to death (literally) seems uncharacteristically nieve.
Please identify WHERE I suggested that factory oils weren't "well tested"...
I was merely requesting some insight into how the millions of Toyotas that you quoted were integrated into the test plan...and what the test plan was, acknowledging that it must have a very high level of secrecy.
I know it's more than "we used it in a million cars and none blew up", like some of the claims on here (not yours).
There is a ExxonMobil in lab video talking about the on going testing and development they do with their partners including GM, Porsche, Mercedes, Toyota, etc which I'm not going to bother to dig up.
Even the suggestion that these OEM oils are somehow not well tested when the reality is that they are tested to death (literally) seems uncharacteristically nieve.
Please identify WHERE I suggested that factory oils weren't "well tested"...
I was merely requesting some insight into how the millions of Toyotas that you quoted were integrated into the test plan...and what the test plan was, acknowledging that it must have a very high level of secrecy.
I know it's more than "we used it in a million cars and none blew up", like some of the claims on here (not yours).
Quote:
The fact is, TGMO 0W-20 is an OEM oil that's been in the marketplace now for 5 years, under constant development in both the lab' and with feed back from millions of vehicles that are using it. That sort of makes your assertion that "we don't really know how good it is", as laughable.
Oil performance is based on what specifications an oil meets. We don't know how good TGMO is other than it's a very light grade 0w20 for Toyota engines. That signifies some level of quality, but anything else beyond that in terms of how good it is, is unknown. So once again, the laugh is on you. Your fixation with this topic and oil is very weird.
http://origin-qps.onstreammedia.com/orig...p/pc/index.html
The fact is, TGMO 0W-20 is an OEM oil that's been in the marketplace now for 5 years, under constant development in both the lab' and with feed back from millions of vehicles that are using it. That sort of makes your assertion that "we don't really know how good it is", as laughable.
Oil performance is based on what specifications an oil meets. We don't know how good TGMO is other than it's a very light grade 0w20 for Toyota engines. That signifies some level of quality, but anything else beyond that in terms of how good it is, is unknown. So once again, the laugh is on you. Your fixation with this topic and oil is very weird.
http://origin-qps.onstreammedia.com/orig...p/pc/index.html
Originally Posted By: buster
Your fixation with this topic and oil is very weird.
We know more about TGMO than most available MOs.
Yes like many BITOGers my interest in MO is a little "weird" and you should know with over 28,000 posts.
Your fixation with this topic and oil is very weird.
We know more about TGMO than most available MOs.
Yes like many BITOGers my interest in MO is a little "weird" and you should know with over 28,000 posts.
- Status
