new style Fram Ultra XG3614

[ZeeOSix]

So in that case, your moisture expansion theory doesn't hold water (pun intended) because even a small amount of water in engine oil turns the whole thing into a chocolate milk frothy mess, and none of these wavy pleats are covered with frothy chocolate milk, there covered in properly colored engine oil. So where is all this "moisture" - enough to significantly expand these pleats, coming from? It doesn't take much water or coolant at all to change the color of the oil.

Do some research on cellulous media and moisture, and what it can cause. Apparently you ignored the info I linked. I guess you've never seen any milky build up under an oil fill cap? I have many times, mostly in cold weather, and if the vehicle is short tripped and the oil temp stays relatively low. There can be more blow-by condensation in the oil than you think. It happens every time a cold engine is fired up. It doesn't have to make the oil look like a milkshake.

Also, if an engine's PVC system is defective or doesn't work very well, then blow-by condensation moisture will remain longer in the guts of the engine and oil. Ever see how much water a PVC catch-can traps from the guts of an engine, especially in humid or cold weather?

 

[SC Maintenance]

Do some research on cellulous media and moisture, and what it can cause. Apparently you ignored the info I linked. I guess you've never seen any milky build up under an oil fill cap? I have many times, mostly in cold weather, and if the vehicle is short tripped and the oil temp stays relatively low. There can be more blow-by condensation in the oil than you think. It happens every time a cold engine is fired up. It doesn't have to make the oil look like a milkshake.

Also, if an engine's PVC system is defective or doesn't work very well, then blow-by condensation moisture will remain longer in the guts of the engine and oil. Ever see how much water a PVC catch-can traps from the guts of an engine, especially in humid or cold weather?

The white film on the oil cap and catch can is water vapor in the air combining with oil droplets flying around in the top end of the engine and condensing on a cooler cap or catch can. The water isn’t mixed with oil in the sump or that oil would also be chocolate brown. So the oil going through the pump does not have this water vapor in it.

Your the one that needs to do your research on how an engine works.

 

[camrydriver111]

We don't know the history of the engine.

Nevertheless its surprising to see the media like that. It may or may not matter but this is supposed to be a premium filter.

Would it last to 15k?

 

[OVERKILL]

The white film on the oil cap and catch can is water vapor in the air combining with oil droplets flying around in the top end of the engine and condensing on a cooler cap or catch can. The water isn’t mixed with oil in the sump or that oil would also be chocolate brown. So the oil going through the pump does not have this water vapor in it.

Your the one that needs to do your research on how an engine works.

Just throwing this out there, but there's a reason labs test for water in UOA's:

 

[SC Maintenance]

Just throwing this out there, but there's a reason labs test for water in UOA's:
View attachment 211406

Of course they do. Water can get in to the oil. But none of the samples in question show any signs of water.

Unless you want to contend that some monumentally small amount of water so undetectable you need to have a lab find it in trace amounts can cause the wavy pleats. Which IMHO would still constitute a questionable design. But I don't think that's it.

Post #70 clearly shows three filters, same application. Only wavy one is a Fram.

Not to say other filter manufacturers past or present might have similar anomaly's - caused likely by whatever phenomenon is causing this. Just seems Fram is the most common and most noticeable currently.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The white film on the oil cap and catch can is water vapor in the air combining with oil droplets flying around in the top end of the engine and condensing on a cooler cap or catch can. The water isn’t mixed with oil in the sump or that oil would also be chocolate brown. So the oil going through the pump does not have this water vapor in it.

Your the one that needs to do your research on how an engine works.

Where do you think that water comes from? I'll tell you since it's obvious that you don't really understand an ICE. It comes from combustion blowing by the piston rings into the sump area. That blow-by going into the sump area will mix with and get into the oil. There is oil splashing all over the place below the pistons due to the journal bearings slinging oil up towards the pistons, and also some engines have piston oil squirters that bath the undersides of the pistons. So that blow-by can mix easily with the oil in the sump area.

The reason some of that condensation collects under the oil fill cap and other places like that as time goes on is because it's condensing on colder areas of the engine. In cold weather and with short drives, that collected moisture can become worse. Driving a car in Florida vs in Minnesota will have an effect on the level of water inside the engine. Also, the water that collects in a PCV catch-can is water vapor, some of which was also liquid water in the oil before the oil temps get hot enough to vaporize it out, that gets sucked out of the crankcase and condensed in the catch-can. It's apparent that you really don't see the whole piture and understand what's going on inside a running engine.

Did you look at that statement in the Machinery Lubrication article I posted earlier? You think that Machinery Lubrication has a bunch of armatures writing for them that don't know what they are writing about? Water can be absorbed by cellulose fiber type media, which can make them swell/grow and become wavy. Once the media swells and becomes wavy, it doesn't magically snap back into place once the moisture is burned off. If water absobtion is not a factor in oil filter wavy pleats then post up some other valid information that proves it doesn't and show what you think the real cause is.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Just throwing this out there, but there's a reason labs test for water in UOA's:
View attachment 211406

I'd like to see some UOA that were done shortly after a cold start when the most combustion water blow-by level is in the oil. Obviously a UOA after a nice hot long run on the engine will not show the same level of combustion blow-by water.

Of course they do. Water can get in to the oil. But none of the samples in question show any signs of water.

See above response. Do some UOAs of the sump 5-10 minutes after a cold start-up before the oil can get hot enough to remove any blow-by water.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Where do you think that water comes from? I'll tell you since it's obvious that you don't really understand an ICE. It comes from combustion blowing by the piston rings into the sump area. That blow-by going into the sump area will mix with and get into the oil. There is oil splashing all over the place below the pistons due to the journal bearings slinging oil up towards the pistons, and also some engines have piston oil squirters that bath the undersides of the pistons. So that blow-by can mix easily with the oil in the sump area.

The reason some of that condensation collects under the oil fill cap and other places like that as time goes on is because it's condensing on colder areas of the engine. In cold weather and with short drives, that collected moisture can become worse. Driving a car in Florida vs in Minnesota will have an effect on the level of water inside the engine. Also, the water that collects in a PCV catch-can is water vapor, some of which was also liquid water in the oil before the oil temps get hot enough to vaporize it out, that gets sucked out of the crankcase and condensed in the catch-can. It's apparent that you really don't see the whole piture and understand what's going on inside a running engine.

Did you look at that statement in the Machinery Lubrication article I posted earlier? You think that Machinery Lubrication has a bunch of armatures writing for them that don't know what they are writing about? Water can be absorbed by cellulose fiber type media, which can make them swell/grow and become wavy. Once the media swells and becomes wavy, it doesn't magically snap back into place once the moisture is burned off. If water absobtion is not a factor in oil filter wavy pleats then post up some other valid information that proves it doesn't and show what you think the real cause is.

View attachment 211414

I never said it couldn't. I worked in a dealer and grew up on a farm so I have seen many oil drains with water. But the oil is easy to identify by its color, and none of these wavy C&P's have shown this phenomenon, with the poster often showing some small amount of clean oil left in the can.

Facts not in evidence essentially.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I'd like to see some UOA that were done shortly after a cold start when the most combustion water blow-by level is in the oil. Obviously a UOA after a nice hot long run on the engine will not show the same level of combustion blow-by water.

Once the oil is contaminated with water, it doesn't evaporate back out. Probably something to do with the emulsification process raising the boiling point or whatever. Not my area of expertise either.

If such a miniscule amount of moisture its not visible in the oil color can expand the pleats, then why only some filters - not all cellulose filters?

I was chastised earlier for speculating, even though I clearly said I was speculating. Proof was demanded. Where is your proof? You clearly have no more proof than the theory its a design, material or assembly issue.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Post #70 clearly shows three filters, same application. Only wavy one is a Fram.

Not to say other filter manufacturers past or present might have similar anomaly's - caused likely by whatever phenomenon is causing this. Just seems Fram is the most common and most noticeable currently.

Obviously some filters are more sensitive to the reason(s) that cause wavy pleats. You haven't been here very long, so there is a lot of discussion history on this board that you lack knowledge of unless you go back 10 years and catch-up. I posted some pretty wavy Purolators earlier in this thread. Wavy pleats is not some magical new phenomena ... it's been going on probably as long as oil filters were invented.

So now some Fram Ultras show some pretty ugly wavy pleats, and some some slightly wavy pleats and a few don't show any wavy pleats. So explain that one. Like I mentioned before, the use conditions (like the level of moisture exposure) has a factor in it. But the real clincher is the bottom line is that there is zero proof that wavy pleats cause any problems, regardless of what oil filter brand it's happening on. People seem to over react over a visual aspect of a used oil filter - those "beauty contest judges". Years ago when wavy pleats were often discussed, nobody really went nuts and lost their minds about it, lol. Now if you can prove that it's causing some kind of detrimental problem like it causes the media to tear, then I'll stop laughing at the non-sense about wavy pleats.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I never said it couldn't. I worked in a dealer and grew up on a farm so I have seen many oil drains with water. But the oil is easy to identify by its color, and none of these wavy C&P's have shown this phenomenon, with the poster often showing some small amount of clean oil left in the can.

Facts not in evidence essentially.

You have no "facts", just subjective antidotes that you are trying to make connections to fit your misconceptions. Combustion blow-by does contain water, and that water gets into the sump area below the pistons and can mix with oil ... that's a fact. The use conditions of the engine will determine what that level of moisture exposure the filter sees throughout the many cold starts and runs of the engine over an OCI.

Post up some technical information that shows that water in the oil doesn't cause wavy filter pleats to counter the information that shows it certainly can. And then post up what you think really causes oil filters to have wavy pleats ... with some actual links to the technical information to show that it's caused by something else beside blow-by water in the oil.

I think what I posted in post 115 didn't register - might read it again. I brought in another possible factor with the way the media is designed and held together with resins binders and possible heat effect on them. But if there are other factors involved like that, the water absolution by cellulose media fibers is still a factor.

 

[SC Maintenance]

You have no "facts", just subjective antidotes that you are trying to make connections to fit your misconceptions. Combustion blow-by does contain water, and that water gets into the sump area below the pistons and can mix with oil ... that's a fact. The use conditions of the engine will determine what that level of moisture is throught the many cold starts and runs of the engine over an OCI.

Post up some technical information that shows that water in the oil doesn't cause wavy filter pleats to counter the information that shows it certainly can. And then post up what you think really causes oil filters to have wavy pleats ... with some actual links to the technical information.

I did make some speculations way back in this thread - but I made many and clearly indicated they were speculation. This seemed to very much cause your ire that I would dare to suggest it something other than the fault of the engine or owner.

I have made no posts saying I know what's going on. I am merely pointing out the flaw in your suggestions.

You keep arguing water can get in oil - which I have agreed. Except none of these wavy pleat examples show signs of contaminated oil - which is very easy to identify, so that can't be the cause based on the limited evidence we have?

You have said that its a function of the engine - but post 70 shows three examples from the same engine except only one is wavy?

You have dredged up wavy pleat photo's from years gone by, but that offers no better understanding of what causes it?

Rather than discuss facts, you simply try to denigrate the messenger.

 

[OVERKILL]

Of course they do. Water can get in to the oil. But none of the samples in question show any signs of water.

Unless you want to contend that some monumentally small amount of water so undetectable you need to have a lab find it in trace amounts can cause the wavy pleats. Which IMHO would still constitute a questionable design. But I don't think that's it.

Post #70 clearly shows three filters, same application. Only wavy one is a Fram.

Not to say other filter manufacturers past or present might have similar anomaly's - caused likely by whatever phenomenon is causing this. Just seems Fram is the most common and most noticeable currently.

We've definitely seen wavy Purolator filters in the past too.

Amusingly, Donaldson designs some cellulose media to specifically absorb water:

And another brand:

Donaldson also specifically spells out swelling with respect to why cellulose is resin treated for coolant filters:

Also, this article may be of interest:
The basics of lubricant water contamination | Plant Engineering

Of note:

Water contamination will present itself in your lubricant in three phases. One phase, dissolved water, is not visible. Dissolved water in a lubricating oil is typically brought in by moist air being absorbed into oil. Depending on the oil, the temperature and the atmospheric pressure, oil may contain 6 to 12% air, and depending on the air’s humidity, varying amounts of dissolved water is in your oil. Many industrial lubricant applications, such as hydraulics, turbines, gears, etc., allow 100-600 ppm of water (0.01 to 0.06%) so long as the water remains in the dissolved state, or below the oil’s saturation point for its temperature and the system pressure. Saturation point goes up with increased oil temperature.

Additional water, beyond the saturation point percentage, added to agitated or circulated oil will create an emulsion of microscopic water droplets in the oil, and the oil will appear cloudy or hazy. Emulsified water is much more detrimental to a lubrication system than dissolved water, and, thus, the water content should be kept below the saturation point for the oil type and temperature, typically 100-300 ppm or less.

Ergo, I don't see it being unrealistic that oil with water below the saturation point, which would not appear to have water in it based on visual inspection, wouldn't result in some of that moisture being absorbed by cellulose media that's not treated to deal with water.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Ergo, I don't see it being unrealistic that oil with water below the saturation point, which would not appear to have water in it based on visual inspection, wouldn't result in some of that moisture being absorbed by cellulose media that's not treated to deal with water.

How then do you correlate that with the same engine, same owner, same use case, only some filters have wavy pleats,, and others are straight as an arrow when all contain cellulose? For example as seen in post #70?

I am asking, not telling?

PS if this is somehow accurate -they should market these filters as removing 99% of water also

 

[ZeeOSix]

Once the oil is contaminated with water, it doesn't evaporate back out. Probably something to do with the emulsification process raising the boiling point or whatever. Not my area of expertise either.

When the oil gets hot enough, most of it will evaporate out and those vapors can condense on colder parts of the engine, like under the valve covers and filler cap. It also can be sucked out of the engine through the PCV system. I've seen catch-cans with lots of water inside them from this action. An engine's PCV performance is also a factor in how the blow-by gets removed. If you did a UOA after doing many cold starts and not allowing the oil to warm-up very much, you'd see way more water in the oil. The oil filter flows that oil, and if the cellulose fibers absorb it the fibers can swell and grow. Once the do that they don't "snap back" like a rubber band.

If such a miniscule amount of moisture its not visible in the oil color can expand the pleats, then why only some filters - not all cellulose filters?

You think the level of water is "miniscule" because you aren't really considering what's happening on each cold start and what happens on engines that are short tripped. The water level is worse in those conditions. Even if the water lever decreases with driving, the moisture was in the oil at some time, and the filter was exposed to it. Onviously it seems some filter media is more susceptible to moisture based on it's exact design . All those Purolators (and some Motorcrafts too) that had wavy pleats have some cellulose in them, there are not 100% full synthetic media.

If you've notices, not all new Ultras have shown the same level of pleat waviness. Why do you think that's the case? Why did this one not have almost perfectly straight pleats?

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/fram-titanium-fs10575-c-p.380369/

I was chastised earlier for speculating, even though I clearly said I was speculating. Proof was demanded. Where is your proof? You clearly have no more proof than the theory its a design, material or assembly issue.

I've posted links like the Machinery Lubrication article that clearly says that moister in the oil can cause oil filters to exhibit wavy pleats. Where's your link to prove it doesn't?

 

[OVERKILL]

How then do you correlate that with the same engine, same owner, same use case, only some filters have wavy pleats,, and others are straight as an arrow when all contain cellulose? For example as seen in post #70?

I am asking, not telling?

PS if this is somehow accurate -they should market these filters are removing 99% of water also

Note that last bit of my statement, that's likely key. If the cellulose is treated, it's not going to absorb water.

 

[ZeeOSix]

How then do you correlate that with the same engine, same owner, same use case, only some filters have wavy pleats,, and others are straight as an arrow when all contain cellulose? For example as seen in post #70?

I am asking, not telling?

PS if this is somehow accurate -they should market these filters are removing 99% of water also

As already said ... because obviously some filter media is more susceptible to absorb water and how it reacts when it absobs water. Some of the Purolators I've seen and posted look just as bad as some of the new Ultras. Yet, people didn't lose thier minds over wavy pleats back then, lol. The new Ultra is now in the "Wavy Pleats Club" now, so ex-Ultra lovers need to get out the crying towels and find a different filter to use if laser straight pleats are a performance requiement.

 

[hrv]

 

[bbhero]

Give me the Premium Guard made Carquest premium filter for less than $8 over this one posted in this thread.

Stevie Wonder could have seen how terrible this filter looks… Hell let’s raise Helen Keller from the dead… She’d agree with that too..


I guarunblankingtee that a Fram Endurance would not look this jacked A real high quality filter that is worth the money.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I did make some speculations way back in this thread - but I made many and clearly indicated they were speculation. This seemed to very much cause your ire that I would dare to suggest it something other than the fault of the engine or owner.

I never once said or even eluded to that wavy pleats were "the fault of the owner". Don't twist the conversation.

I have made no posts saying I know what's going on. I am merely pointing out the flaw in your suggestions.

You don't believe that water absolution is a factor, and it's been shown it can be. So I'm asking you what you believe the cause is, and to post up some links that supports what you think the cause is. Simple technical discussion procedure.

You keep arguing water can get in oil - which I have agreed. Except none of these wavy pleat examples show signs of contaminated oil - which is very easy to identify, so that can't be the cause based on the limited evidence we have?

Again, you don't get that the max level of water contamination in the oil is during cold starts and engine warm-up. You are only focusing on fully hot oil that's been ran for a long time period. Big difference going on in those different scenarios.

You have said that its a function of the engine - but post 70 shows three examples from the same engine except only one is wavy?

Again, not all filter media is the same and obviously some media is more susceptible and more sensitive to water absorption. You seem to believe what @OVERKILL is posting, which is pretty much what I've been saying all along.

You have dredged up wavy pleat photo's from years gone by, but that offers no better understanding of what causes it?

It shows that wavy pleats have been going on forever. Those filters were also cellulose blended media. It shows that wavy pleats are not some new BITOG phenomenon ... but it seems to have become the new "performance standard" by people today. If it can't make it into the oil filter C&P centerfold, it's a reject kind of attitude which I find pretty funny. People never lost their minds years ago when filters with wavy pleats were posted here.

Rather than discuss facts, you simply try to denigrate the messenger.

You do the same. You keep saying you don't believe that water absolution is a factor. I say then show it's not and instead then show what you think it's caused by. I haven't seen one link posted up by you that supports your belief of the cause of wavy pleats.