New Powertrains Bring Lube Challenges

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: JAG
What oil specs do Ford Taurus SHO engines require?

As of right now, the oil recommendation is the standard Motorcraft 5w-20 at 7500 mile intervals for many service conditions.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Mustang Man
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Because some people live in areas where in never gets below freezing and want less plastic and more oil in their engine.

That makes no sense.

Then I'm sure you can tell me why.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Mustang Man
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Because some people live in areas where in never gets below freezing and want less plastic and more oil in their engine.

That makes no sense.



Compared to a 5w30 where the VI is reasonably close ..and in a conventional oil, sure it does.

If you have no need for the cold spec's of the fluid, there's little reason to tolerate the compromised side effects. There's still some shearing with conventional oils. There will tend to be less with 10w-30 vs. 5w30.

It's not necessarily a matter of consequence to most ..and there's always a "one size can fit all" year round thing for the 4 season types.

Suppose you're in a two season scenario; hot and hotter ..warm and warmer?

 

[Tempest]

VII tends to protect less than oil.

Oil is less likely to break down and cause deposit issues.

A heavier base oil CAN be used as a start. Doesn't necessary mean it has.

Even most syn oils use VII.

 

[Mustang Man]

There are no compromised side effects with 0w! You are getting better flow at start up. It not just for those in cold weather. In a matter of about 10 minutes of driving, the engine is at operating temperature and the 0w-30 is the same or incredibly close to 5/10w-30.

I want protection from wear when it usually happens... at start up!

But hey. 5w and 10w are cold specs too so I guess we should all use straight 30 weight.

I am anxiously awaiting the VOA I sent off for M1 AFE 0w-30.

Watch this...

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Moto...Performance.mp4

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
You are getting better flow at start up.


How ..or rather why do you think/know this is true?


I mean, it can ...but when those properties are non-existent or rather not applicable, just what does 0w do for you?


What advantage in flow at start up will this 0w provide over the 10w if your starting temp is 85F+?? The difference between them isn't even significant until around 0C.

Typical Properties

Mobil 1 0W-30
SAE Grade 0W-30
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40ºC 63.1
cSt @ 100ºC 11.0
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 169
Sulfated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 1.0
HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150ºC ASTM D 4683 2.99
Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 97 -54
Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 228
Density @15º C kg/l, ASTM D 4052 0.845

Typical Properties

Mobil 1 10W-30
SAE Grade 10W-30
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40º C 62
cSt @ 100º C 10.0
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 147
Sulfated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 1.0
HTHS Viscosity, mPa·s @ 150ºC ASTM D 4683 3.14
Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 97 -45
Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 224
Density @15º C kg/l, ASTM D 4052 0.86

 

[Mustang Man]

The Mobil 1 5w30 would have been a better comparison. Their 10w-30 is THIN.

Anyway it is in the cSt. That number goes up the colder it gets. Oil gets thinner when it gets hotter. I want the lowest possible cSt number I can easily get for start up. That comes from 0w-30.

Don't forget 40°C is 104°F. That is a hot day! But the ambient temperature of an engine will be about 21°C when it is 70°F outside and the engine hasn't been ran for awhile. I am sure you will see a bigger difference between cSt at that temperature and as it gets colder with 0w being better than 5/10w.

But still, this idea that 0w-30 is somehow too thin for hotter areas is silly. As I have said numerous times, when at operating temperature they all are about the same viscosity and using your example above, the 0w-30 is actually a bit thicker at operating temperature than the 10w-30. I like that added protection as well.

I see nothing but BENEFIT from 0w-30 as compared to 5/10w-30.

 

[Shannow]

Haven't heard anybody say that 0W-30 is too thin, as in theory, it should be thicker than 10W-30 above 100C.

Tempest's point, and he's correct, is that the greatest VI spread has the greatest amount of viscosity index improvers.

Therefore, under high temperature and high shear conditions, the true viscosity in the bearing, or cam/lifter interface is was lower than would otherwise be assumed or guessed.

And VIIs tend not to be as stable as basestocks and reduce oil's performance as they shear, oxidise, and fall apart.

If a 10W-30 (or a straight 30) is appropriate for your ambient, all things equal, I'd take less plastic.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Tempest's point, and he's correct,


Oooh, I feel a little funny now.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Tempest's point, and he's correct,


Oooh, I feel a little funny now.

Broken clock theory...

 

[Mustang Man]

I am a little confused with this VII argument. Dino, for example 5w30, is a 5w oil that has VII so it is 30 when at operating temperature. Synthetic, using 5w30, is a 30 but acts like a 5w when cold.

Either way, I like 0w-30 and see no need to use 5/10w-30 when it does the same thing when hot and protects better when cold. And it appears all the 0w-30 oils are synthetic.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Synthetic, using 5w30, is a 30 but acts like a 5w when cold.

Just about ANY multigrade oil you buy will have VII, synthetic or not. So your statement above will be wrong for commercial oils.

The wider the spread, the greater the amount of VII.

There are, probably, ways to get a 5W30 without VII, but you won't find them on the selves. Think $$$$.

 

[Mustang Man]

Nope...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=81

"A 10W-30 multi-grade mineral based oil is made from a 10 grade oil and has VI improvers added to thicken the product in a 212 F engine. It acts as a 30 grade oil when hot."

"A 10W-30 synthetic oil is based on a 30 grade oil. This is unlike the counterpart mineral oil based on a 10 grade oil. There is no VI improver needed."

 

[Shannow]

Mustang Man, where you aren't getting it is that the wider the spread, the further away you get from the concept of a decent basestock and anti wear additive package.

If there was a 0W-30 basestock on the market, with a decent AW package, then BITOG would be all over it, particularly if price was OK.

But there's no real contender, but there are decent basestocks.

The wider the spread, the more other stuff needs to be added to get the spread, including additives that can break down, or shear in high shear areas.

So while it moight appear to be a 0W-30 on paper, places in your engine could be experiencing a 20 or worse.

 

[Mustang Man]

This is another reason why I submitted M1 AFE 0w-30 in for a VOA. I want to get a better idea of it, but so far I am quite impressed with it. It is cleaning dino varnish out of my engine, my engine starts right up nice and smooth, I have none of the mythical Mobil 1 noise, and I am sure it is protecting well. Results are what count.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Mustang Man
I have none of the mythical Mobil 1 noise, and I am sure it is protecting well. Results are what count.


Mythical Mobil 1 noise, cool name. Here's a funny thing I ran Mobil 1 for almost 2 decades, then decided Mobil 1 wasn't for me anymore [long story]. Anwyway when I changed to PP the engine sounded quiter than with Mobil 1, I'm now running Edge and it is still quieter. I never realized I had the "Mythical Mobil 1" noise until I made the change. Mobil 1 was the first and only synthetic oil that engine ever had. Two decades later I made the change and never realized how much quieter that engine could have been.

I know engine noise according to many people here, like oil color means nothing. I'd rather have less noise though.

 

[jorton]

From TV adds it sounds to me engines in some 2010 and newer models are producing outrageous amounts of power.

In a similar engine from 1995 Nissan spec'd 10w-30 and 10w-40 for the 300ZX twin turbo. I think Ford now want's a more viscous oil and they're looking at 0W in order to preserve cafe points.

 

[modularv8]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Mustang Man, where you aren't getting it is that the wider the spread, the further away you get from the concept of a decent basestock and anti wear additive package.

If there was a 0W-30 basestock on the market, with a decent AW package, then BITOG would be all over it, particularly if price was OK.

But there's no real contender, but there are decent basestocks.

The wider the spread, the more other stuff needs to be added to get the spread, including additives that can break down, or shear in high shear areas.

So while it moight appear to be a 0W-30 on paper, places in your engine could be experiencing a 20 or worse.


That is incorrect. It is true that a wider viscosity range motor oil(0w-30) requires more VII, but the amount is only 1 - 2% more than 5w30 (synthetic). What is also true, is 0w-30 requires much higher quality basestocks. In fact, it is difficult to formulate 0w-30 without the use of all group III bended with PAO. And in Mobil AFE 0w-30, about 60% PAO. The lower the MRV, the higher the quality of the basestock needed. This is true in any quality brand motor oil. You can not just add VII or more PPD to achieve certain viscometric properties because the integrity of the oil under operation will then suffer (won't pass certification specs). Therefore, 0w-30's require high amounts of higher quality basestocks to formulate.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Mustang Man
Nope...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=81

"A 10W-30 multi-grade mineral based oil is made from a 10 grade oil and has VI improvers added to thicken the product in a 212 F engine. It acts as a 30 grade oil when hot."

"A 10W-30 synthetic oil is based on a 30 grade oil. This is unlike the counterpart mineral oil based on a 10 grade oil. There is no VI improver needed."

And here is were that article propagates incorrect information. That article is highly flawed. I've laid out how down in the general section of this forum.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: modularv8

That is incorrect. It is true that a wider viscosity range motor oil(0w-30) requires more VII, but the amount is only 1 - 2% more than 5w30 (synthetic). What is also true, is 0w-30 requires much higher quality basestocks. In fact, it is difficult to formulate 0w-30 without the use of all group III bended with PAO. And in Mobil AFE 0w-30, about 60% PAO. The lower the MRV, the higher the quality of the basestock needed. This is true in any quality brand motor oil. You can not just add VII or more PPD to achieve certain viscometric properties because the integrity of the oil under operation will then suffer (won't pass certification specs). Therefore, 0w-30's require high amounts of higher quality basestocks to formulate.

Exactly. Higher quality base stocks don't protect better, they flow better. You also have to start with thinner base stocks to achieve a 0W30. Synthetic or not. That is why it has to contain more VII.

In the hot area that I live, there is no advantage to a 0W30.