New Oil Pump and modified!

[OceanDoctor]

SO the ol' high mileage Camry has this strange problem where the oil pump buzzes when the oil is cold. It sounds pretty bad. I can really feel harsh pulsation if I hold the filter can too, so maybe the geroter cracked, maybe hydraulically from revving it in the cold with really thick oil in, hard to say till i get it out. Anyway, timing belt, tensioners, idler pulley (mayyyybe water pump) and every seal in the front needs to get changed; and obviously the oil pump. So all parts orderd and arrived and I'm checking out the oil pump. Now. being machinery lubrication freak that I am, had the pump dismantled within minutes! Just checkin out the geroter and pressure relief valve... went ahead and prelubed the pump gears and housing with a concentrated MoDTC additive (which is in something like a SAE60-80 base) so that moly is the first thing the bare metal sees. But that's not enough... I had to shim the relief 1.5mm also.... in anticipation of using the thinnest, highest VI oils I can find (looks at the Idemitsu 0w20). Which leads me to my next questions: Am I suffering from BITOG induced neurosis? and .... is there anthing else that I can do to this pump to 'make it better'? lol porting the inlet/outlets??

 

[A_Harman]

Yes, you have been assimilated by the BITOG!

I don't think that shimming the spring on the regulator valve is necessarily going to make more oil pressure with low viscosity oil. If the pump doesn't have enough capacity to make enough pressure to move the regulator while pumping the higher volume of oil, shimming the spring will not make any difference. And if it does actually increase the pressure, that would only hurt fuel economy because the pump is working much harder to pump a larger volume of oil at a higher pressure.

Assuming that the pump has poor volumetric efficiency to start with, porting the inlet would be more useful than the outlet. It's better to reduce restriction on the suction side of a pump to minimize the possibility of cavitation.

 

[beast3300]

genious!

 

[Donald]

Its a Camry not an Indy car!!

 

[cp3]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Its a Camry not an Indy car!!


And it is his Camry, he is allowed to play if he wants to!

Shimming the relief is to adjust at what pressure it opens isn't it?

 

[UNC017]

If you're shimming the relief valve in anticipation of thinner oil... it isn't going to make any difference. It will just raise the maximum oil pressure, it won't raise the pressure at idle or cruise at all. What you really want for thin oil is a higher volume oil pump (IOW, it pushes out more ounces of oil every rotation than the stock pump does.)

Say the relief valve opens at X PSI. With thinner oil, the pump will be moving the same volume of oil per rotation that it did with thicker oil. The clearances in the engine "leak" an amount of oil that depends on the oil thickness and pressure. When the pump turns fast enough that the volume its pushing out generates X PSI of back-pressure against the clearance leaks, the relief valve opens. Going to a thinner oil makes the clearances "leak" more oil, and that in turn just means that the pump has to spin faster to generate X PSI. Shimming the oil pressure relief valve only increases the value of X, it doesn't increase the pressure at lower RPM at all, so at idle on a hot day you may still be below spec oil pressure with thin oil

On the other hand, if you increase the volume of oil the pump pushes out per turn, then the pressure at low RPM will be higher and allow the pressure to be back in spec range with thinner oil.

High-volume oil pumps are available for many performance and vintage engines- I've got HV pumps on both my old Mopar 440s. However I seriously doubt there's one available for most Camry engines. HV versions of any given pump are usually made by increasing the thickness of the gerotor assembly so that the trapped oil volume between the lobes is bigger. This is difficult on modern engines that mount the oil pump on the nose of the crankshaft because there's only a limited amount of room to thicken the oil pump assembly, whereas old engines that mount the pump in the pan or on the outside of the block skirt (like my 440s) there's plenty of room for a taller/thicker pump assembly.

 

[94MaxGXE]

This mys sound to simple, but have you tried changing the oil filter? Some filters have a flat spring clicker type bypass spring, and some use a round coil type spring. I have found over the years that clicker type oil filters can make a buzzing noise.

 

[OceanDoctor]

Wow, what a debacle! Been busy for a while, working like crazy again and the car's been in the shop all week. It took them a day to do the job, but once it was done they had a low oil pressure issue, the idiot light was flickering at hot idle. Pressure readings indicated ~5psi@idle, 15psi max...

So being a repeat re & re, they kinda pushed it to the back burner which is irritating. They finally got around to pulling the pan again last night, and reported their findings; sludge. They said it was everywhere. The pickup tube and screen were blocked, which is why the old pump was buzzing. Buddy did the job so fast originally that "he didnt notice". Quite strange, but apparently they cleaned the pickup tube, screen etc and all is back to normal. Pressure went from 5psi to 50psi. Gonna pick up the car today and figure out how to deal with that sludge. I'm sure the acute sludge formation was responsible for stuck rings in one cylinder a few months back (uneven cranking speed, oil burning), which Pennzoil conventional alone actually fixed- no joke. Compression is great now, oil burning stopped but still there is sludge layers on the inside walls of ther block; havent even checked the head.

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

High-volume oil pumps are available for many performance and vintage engines- I've got HV pumps on both my old Mopar 440s. However I seriously doubt there's one available for most Camry engines.


You'd be surprised. 97-01 5SFE's actually have a deeper geroter than all previous years from the factory. They also have a smaller pulley, so it's spinning faster than the previous revisions at all engine speeds.

Originally Posted By: 94MaxGXE
This mys sound to simple, but have you tried changing the oil filter? Some filters have a flat spring clicker type bypass spring, and some use a round coil type spring. I have found over the years that clicker type oil filters can make a buzzing noise.


When I first heard the noise, tried several oil changes with several brands of filters to see if it would make a diff. without luck.

I'm scared to do any hard core solvent flushing, because I dont want to break chunks off and clog the screen again, what would you guys recommend? An Oz of Seafoam?

 

[Texan4Life]

HDEO!!

...but in your climate maybe some short runns with a cheap 20wt and some MMO?

 

[Jim Spahr]

What is the engine in the Camry-4 or V6-- and how many miles? What is a geroter?

 

[OceanDoctor]

Originally Posted By: Jim Spahr
What is the engine in the Camry-4 or V6-- and how many miles? What is a geroter?


2.2L 4cyl ~200k miles/360k km's

A geroter is the style of oil pump with a 5 tooth inverted outer gear and a 4 tooth inner gear which are mounted eccentrically from each other so that when they turn, they displace volume, create pressure differentials on either side and pump oil.

FWIW, I'm so disappointed about how fast sludge can occur in this engine. As a known sludger it need oil changed regularly, and/or with quality long life oil. Let someone use the car for 8+ months and this is what can happen

 

[daves66nova]

"You'd be surprised. 97-01 5SFE's actually have a deeper geroter than all previous years from the factory. They also have a smaller pulley, so it's spinning faster than the previous revisions at all engine speeds." Can these parts be put on a 95 Camry?

 

[daves66nova]

Originally Posted By: Jim Spahr
What is the engine in the Camry-4 or V6-- and how many miles? What is a geroter?
a geroter is something like this, http://www.ebay.com/itm/PARKER-HANNIFIN-...=item230fb1793c

 

[OceanDoctor]

Originally Posted By: daves66nova




"You'd be surprised. 97-01 5SFE's actually have a deeper geroter than all previous years from the factory. They also have a smaller pulley, so it's spinning faster than the previous revisions at all engine speeds." Can these parts be put on a 95 Camry?



AFAIK, Yes it can! You'd need to use the 97+ timing belt which is 2 teeth shorter to make up for the smaller gear... and I think make sure the teeth are the same (square vs rounded). It's a popular upgrade for the 2.0L guys


So a small update on my first day back with the car, driving to work all normal and boot it to get ahead of this semi before I turn into the driveway to the parking lot. Right after the 'boot' I notice smoke billowing out the back as I slow to make the turn.. thinking "AHHH shoot! The rings just burned up, probably from the sludge" park it quick and race into work (late). As my coworker is leaving he calls me up and says there's a huge puddle of oil under the car... naturally I expected the worst- blew a seal or something. On my break, size up the situation and lo and behold, the oil drain plug fell out!! The guys at the shop didnt tighten it up

how unbelievable is this?? Thank the stars that it fell out right as I'm turning in the lot, and that the pump didnt get a chance to suck air yet! Went to Canadian Tire, bought a new plug, 14mm combo wrench and a jug of oil and fixed it up for the drive home... dodged a lot of bullets today