New Michelin Alpin 6 Winter Tire

[SubLGT]

For the last several years Michelin has been pushing the idea of "perennial performance" for their tires:
https://www.michelin.com/eng/media-room/...-limit-of-1.6mm

Quote:
For your car, a new tire represents a tread depth of around 8mm and can sometimes be as much as 9.5mm on some models. Current legislation in most of the European Union as well as Japan, the US and Canada sets the legal wear level at 1.6mm. ...Currently, some manufacturers are recommending early replacement of tires at around 3mm. In our opinion, this is reminiscent of programmed obsolescence which is no doubt profitable for the manufacturer, but definitely has no benefit for the consumer or the environment. Our customers do not need to change their MICHELIN tires until the wear indicators appear.


With the new Alpin 6, Michelin is claiming safe use on snow down to 1.6mm tread depth. This tire has a 2 layer tread (both layers are winter formulation), as shown in their 2 minute video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHB3odbSNF8&index=1&list=PLnQqxoRZbwnTaYXTve97elEyji5M4oCF5

This is the second new winter tire Michelin has introduced in 2018 (the other one is a studded tire). Is the successor to the XIce Xi3 also imminent, with the same "EverGrip" technologies as the Alpin 6?

 

[LotI]

With the winters being more mild and lacking snowfall in the Midwest, I'm really liking the idea of the CrossClimate+ tire. Basically a summer tire that meets 3PMSF standards. CrossClimate+ Tyre review CrossClimate+ Even it's predecessor rated well. Tyre review CrossClimate

I have run dedicated winter tires since the mid 90's and have always found them beneficial. With the tons of salt they put on the roads and the fact that I don't have to be at a certain place at a certain time since I'm self-employed means I don't have to drive in poor conditions unless I want/need to. My Xice Xi3's lasted over 30k winter miles and were still above the snow bars.

 

[gizzsdad]

Very interesting. Certainly would seem to be in contrast to the companies' best interest - customers keeping tires, including winter tires, all the way down to the wear bars. This as opposed to selling the customer new winter tires at 3-4 mm.

Some instrumented testing of tires (especially winter) at 1.6 mm vs new would really help!

 

[jjjxlr8]

The problem with their testing is that they are simply buffing the tread down to the 2/32nds depth and testing. This is not going to provide the same performance as a tire that has worn over time with many,many heat cycles and exposure to the elements.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: jjjxlr8
The problem with their testing is that they are simply buffing the tread down to the 2/32nds depth and testing. This is not going to provide the same performance as a tire that has worn over time with many,many heat cycles and exposure to the elements.

True. Though they could heat cycle it. But you're probably right that it's not quite the same as the real thing.

FWIW though, every single Michelin tire I've ever owned (Pilot Sport PS2, Pilot Alpin PA3, Pilot Super Sport, Primacy Alpin PA3, Pilot Sport 4S) has performed well all the way down to the wear bars. Like, they were better at 2/32nds than many of my tires were when brand spankin' new. Including in the toughest conditions, like deep snow or standing water. Friends of mine have run those and other Michelin tires until bald or even corded, with similar results. So, unless Michelin is shipping ringers to all of us for some reason, I have to imagine they're doing something right on this front. Or at least they're able to do it right.

 

[edyvw]

I had Michelin PSS and had them down to 3/32. They performed better in wet and rain at 3/32 then many new tires I had, especially tires like Kumho and similar brands.
That is only manufacturer I trust it will provide good performance at wear bars when braking.

 

[IndyIan]

I guess for hard packed snow and ice, tread depth has little effect at all. In the deep stuff though, simple tread depth and geometry still are important. Michelin pretty much gives up on deep snow/slush performance anyways so I could see how their specific tires still perform close to as new, after wearing half way.
My yoko ig52c ice tires are at the snow bars now, and still seem to work pretty good on the hard packed snow as they still have nearly all the sipes visible, but they are suffering in the deep stuff more than before, so I'll probably get a new set of snows in the fall.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I guess for hard packed snow and ice, tread depth has little effect at all. In the deep stuff though, simple tread depth and geometry still are important. Michelin pretty much gives up on deep snow/slush performance anyways so I could see how their specific tires still perform close to as new, after wearing half way.
My yoko ig52c ice tires are at the snow bars now, and still seem to work pretty good on the hard packed snow as they still have nearly all the sipes visible, but they are suffering in the deep stuff more than before, so I'll probably get a new set of snows in the fall.

I must say I am impressed by Michelin Xi2 in deep snow and slush. They work great in dry and wet, but did not expect such performance in deep snow.
Making tire that is good in deep snow and slush is not particularly hard. Making tire that feels like all season in dry, has great wet performance and still has good deep snow and slush performance is hard. I have Nokian R2 on my Tiguan, and while they are blast in deep snow and slush, they are horrid in dry and wet.
I am not sure how Xi3 are in deep snow and slush, but based on my experience with Xi2 on BMW, it was big mistake on my part not getting Xi3 instead of Nokian's.

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: jjjxlr8
The problem with their testing is that they are simply buffing the tread down to the 2/32nds depth and testing. This is not going to provide the same performance as a tire that has worn over time with many,many heat cycles and exposure to the elements.

True. Though they could heat cycle it. But you're probably right that it's not quite the same as the real thing.

FWIW though, every single Michelin tire I've ever owned (Pilot Sport PS2, Pilot Alpin PA3, Pilot Super Sport, Primacy Alpin PA3, Pilot Sport 4S) has performed well all the way down to the wear bars. Like, they were better at 2/32nds than many of my tires were when brand spankin' new. Including in the toughest conditions, like deep snow or standing water. Friends of mine have run those and other Michelin tires until bald or even corded, with similar results. So, unless Michelin is shipping ringers to all of us for some reason, I have to imagine they're doing something right on this front. Or at least they're able to do it right.


It actually states it in their literature its simply buffed down to that tread depth.

I bet they wouldnt be as good with 5 years of driving on them.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I guess for hard packed snow and ice, tread depth has little effect at all. In the deep stuff though, simple tread depth and geometry still are important. Michelin pretty much gives up on deep snow/slush performance anyways so I could see how their specific tires still perform close to as new, after wearing half way.
My yoko ig52c ice tires are at the snow bars now, and still seem to work pretty good on the hard packed snow as they still have nearly all the sipes visible, but they are suffering in the deep stuff more than before, so I'll probably get a new set of snows in the fall.

I must say I am impressed by Michelin Xi2 in deep snow and slush. They work great in dry and wet, but did not expect such performance in deep snow.
Making tire that is good in deep snow and slush is not particularly hard. Making tire that feels like all season in dry, has great wet performance and still has good deep snow and slush performance is hard. I have Nokian R2 on my Tiguan, while they are blast in deep snow and slush, they are horrid in dry and wet.
I am not sure how Xi3 are in deep snow and slush, but based on my experience with Xi2 on BMW, it was big mistake on my part not getting Xi3 instead of Nokian's.

I've actually gone for a set of Xice2's for our Outback(just haven't mounted them yet), as I think they are a good compromise for our overall usage as well. But what surprised me was how similar the lowly rated OEM bridgestone duelers worked in 8" of churned up snow the logging road to our favorite ice fishing spot, compared to the 9/32 Xice2's we had on our 06 CRV. Probably if you ran them back to back the Xice2 would still be a bit better, but we had no problems at all with the duelers and some of the hills are steep enough that fwd anything with any snow tires wouldn't make it with that much snow.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I guess for hard packed snow and ice, tread depth has little effect at all. In the deep stuff though, simple tread depth and geometry still are important. Michelin pretty much gives up on deep snow/slush performance anyways so I could see how their specific tires still perform close to as new, after wearing half way.
My yoko ig52c ice tires are at the snow bars now, and still seem to work pretty good on the hard packed snow as they still have nearly all the sipes visible, but they are suffering in the deep stuff more than before, so I'll probably get a new set of snows in the fall.

I must say I am impressed by Michelin Xi2 in deep snow and slush. They work great in dry and wet, but did not expect such performance in deep snow.
Making tire that is good in deep snow and slush is not particularly hard. Making tire that feels like all season in dry, has great wet performance and still has good deep snow and slush performance is hard. I have Nokian R2 on my Tiguan, while they are blast in deep snow and slush, they are horrid in dry and wet.
I am not sure how Xi3 are in deep snow and slush, but based on my experience with Xi2 on BMW, it was big mistake on my part not getting Xi3 instead of Nokian's.

I've actually gone for a set of Xice2's for our Outback(just haven't mounted them yet), as I think they are a good compromise for our overall usage as well. But what surprised me was how similar the lowly rated OEM bridgestone duelers worked in 8" of churned up snow the logging road to our favorite ice fishing spot, compared to the 9/32 Xice2's we had on our 06 CRV. Probably if you ran them back to back the Xice2 would still be a bit better, but we had no problems at all with the duelers and some of the hills are steep enough that fwd anything with any snow tires wouldn't make it with that much snow.

Not sure what Dualers come on Subaru, but I got Dualer H/L 400 on BMW< and almost hit the wall on my garage in half an inch of snow.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Not sure what Dualers come on Subaru, but I got Dualer H/L 400 on BMW< and almost hit the wall on my garage in half an inch of snow.

OMG, my FXT came with those horrendous tires and I nearly slid off the road in my ski town in about 2" of puffy snow.
I was aware that I was not on winter tires and taking it easy, too...I was absolutely shocked with how incompetent they were in a little bit of snow.
I had just purchased the vehicle and was planning to wait until fall to buy winter tires, figured that all seasons should be tolerable for any early to mid April light snow that showed up...WRONG!!!
The amazing part is that TireRack wants nearly $225/tire in my size for these useless "all seasons"...I feel sorry for the suckers who only buy OEM tires as replacements.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Not sure what Dualers come on Subaru, but I got Dualer H/L 400 on BMW< and almost hit the wall on my garage in half an inch of snow.

OMG, my FXT came with those horrendous tires and I nearly slid off the road in my ski town in about 2" of puffy snow.
I was aware that I was not on winter tires and taking it easy, too...I was absolutely shocked with how incompetent they were in a little bit of snow.
I had just purchased the vehicle and was planning to wait until fall to buy winter tires, figured that all seasons should be tolerable for any early to mid April light snow that showed up...WRONG!!!
The amazing part is that TireRack wants nearly $225/tire in my size for these useless "all seasons"...I feel sorry for the suckers who only buy OEM tires as replacements.

Yeah, I was waiting DM-V2 to be delivered and went out just to see how Dualers do. Generally H/L400 is incompetent tire in many aspects.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Not sure what Dualers come on Subaru, but I got Dualer H/L 400 on BMW< and almost hit the wall on my garage in half an inch of snow.

OMG, my FXT came with those horrendous tires and I nearly slid off the road in my ski town in about 2" of puffy snow.
I was aware that I was not on winter tires and taking it easy, too...I was absolutely shocked with how incompetent they were in a little bit of snow.
I had just purchased the vehicle and was planning to wait until fall to buy winter tires, figured that all seasons should be tolerable for any early to mid April light snow that showed up...WRONG!!!
The amazing part is that TireRack wants nearly $225/tire in my size for these useless "all seasons"...I feel sorry for the suckers who only buy OEM tires as replacements.

Yeah, I was waiting DM-V2 to be delivered and went out just to see how Dualers do. Generally H/L400 is incompetent tire in many aspects.

The 2.5i comes with 225/65R17 Dueler HP Sport A/S. My wife hasn't complained about them anyways so they have been working Ok in our minor spring snow storms. They do seem to have a very narrow actual contact patch, tire rack lists 6.5" with 8.9" overall width, so I can see how the sidewalls get cut up on rocks off roading.
They did win a tirerack competition over some pirellis and continentals, and in my handling tests they seem to grip pretty well and are silent even when sliding a bit. I was tempted to get the dealer to put different tires on to start due to some reviews but I'm not regretting keeping them so far. Some people go for a more All-terrain tire on the Outback but I've tried that with the CRV and the off road grip isn't worth the compromises for me.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
The 2.5i comes with 225/65R17 Dueler HP Sport A/S. My wife hasn't complained about them anyways so they have been working Ok in our minor spring snow storms. They do seem to have a very narrow actual contact patch, tire rack lists 6.5" with 8.9" overall width, so I can see how the sidewalls get cut up on rocks off roading.
They did win a tirerack competition over some pirellis and continentals, and in my handling tests they seem to grip pretty well and are silent even when sliding a bit. I was tempted to get the dealer to put different tires on to start due to some reviews but I'm not regretting keeping them so far. Some people go for a more All-terrain tire on the Outback but I've tried that with the CRV and the off road grip isn't worth the compromises for me.

I bought some flavor of Dueler for my RAV6 and they were fine, even used them over one winter with decent results...but I still bought winter tires for the next season.
This was one reason I thought the H/L 400s would be OK for some spring snow...that experience taught me that the exact tire model matters, a tire just being in the Dueler or Avid or Eagle family doesn't really tell you anything.