New design for Super Tech ST3614
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Do you have one iota of proof or any facts to back up your opinion? Perhaps you have an Instron in your garage? The cartridge filters with the plastic cage and end caps have been around for a while including Saab and some other upmarket cars. I have found similar construction in such high rated filters as Hastings LF548 and WIX 57082. I haven't looked at the ST 9018 that carefully, but all the other brands have been about the same. I am running a Purolator now because I am finding them cheaper than the ST or other brands. Filter failures are rare, but still, I haven't seen a single report here of the new plastic cage and endcaps failing. I just don't see the flimsy, thin metal inner tubes as being much stronger. Before I would condemn the new style smaller on the outside filters, I would cut some open and measure the filter media as compared to the old style. I am not a big fan of metal valves either. Most metal to metal seals leak.
labman,I have enough edykashun to know that a metal cylinder can and will hold a very considerable load.
There just is NOT that much of a plastic CAGE to be very strong,anyone can see this by just looking at it.Plus,the plastic will be exposed to heat and chemicals that are in the oil.
These chemicals range from oil additives to gasoline at a normal and higher than normal level.
They may also be exposed to other chemicals that a person may add to the oil/gas.
Will these chemicals soften or harden the plastic?
As one of the other posters said,I will let others be the testers of these and then maybe I will use them if nothing else is available.
As I have said more than once.If this was a Fram product,how many would be saying it was a good design?
Anyone?
I think if this was a Fram product,it would be getting raked over the coals as being just another gimmick by Fram and a piece of junk.
These filters may be fine,I dont know.
I just dont feel comfortable with them and will stay away from them as long as possible.
In my opinion and from what I have seen,they just look very cheaply made.
There just is NOT that much of a plastic CAGE to be very strong,anyone can see this by just looking at it.Plus,the plastic will be exposed to heat and chemicals that are in the oil.
These chemicals range from oil additives to gasoline at a normal and higher than normal level.
They may also be exposed to other chemicals that a person may add to the oil/gas.
Will these chemicals soften or harden the plastic?
As one of the other posters said,I will let others be the testers of these and then maybe I will use them if nothing else is available.
As I have said more than once.If this was a Fram product,how many would be saying it was a good design?
Anyone?
I think if this was a Fram product,it would be getting raked over the coals as being just another gimmick by Fram and a piece of junk.
These filters may be fine,I dont know.
I just dont feel comfortable with them and will stay away from them as long as possible.
In my opinion and from what I have seen,they just look very cheaply made.
Just pretend the "plastic" is a high-strength polymer made by Glock...
Just pretend the "plastic" is a high-strength polymer made by Glock...
I would have to agree...I made fun of Glock a few years back too, now I have an H&K and I am VERY pleased with it. I think the Champion folks have done pretty well, I have always boycotted very new major change products...but if they prove out in initial testing/use...I'm a customer.
I would have to agree...I made fun of Glock a few years back too, now I have an H&K and I am VERY pleased with it. I think the Champion folks have done pretty well, I have always boycotted very new major change products...but if they prove out in initial testing/use...I'm a customer.
I just flattened the flimsy metal tube out of an ST 3950. What did I push it flat with? The cheaply made plastic tube out of a Purolator L 15436. The Purolator had survived the heat, oil, etc. for 7500 miles all summer in my Cavalier. It is true, that my test was at room temperature, but the greatest stress on an oil filter should come at start up with a cold engine. I admit the test was not too realistic. Later I tried tightening a worm drive hose clamp down on the plastic tube. I centered it on the weakest area. I was able to collapse it without too much trouble, but had already ruined the only metal tube I had. Maybe the best thing would be to try that with the filter media removed, but with both tubes supported by their end caps.
I would hardly call the plastic end caps untested. My Cavalier came from the factory with them almost 3 years ago. I think the Ecotec engine was new to Chevy that year, but the Saturns were using them before that. By now owners have removed thousands with any failed insides right there to be seen. Mercedes and BMW are using cartridges too, but I do not know how long they have or if theirs have the same plastic end caps.
While I had the ST apart, I measured its filter area. It was the first of the new black canister ones I have cut apart. I was surprised to find more filter area than the old blue ones, 189 sq.in. That is more than the older ones, as much or more than anything equivalent except the AC.
The one point I do have to agree on is that people are very subjective about Fram. I feel cheated and mislead. I think the board would filter out where it must freeze over before I buy another one. I am more concerned about the lack of filter media between the end caps than the end caps.
I would hardly call the plastic end caps untested. My Cavalier came from the factory with them almost 3 years ago. I think the Ecotec engine was new to Chevy that year, but the Saturns were using them before that. By now owners have removed thousands with any failed insides right there to be seen. Mercedes and BMW are using cartridges too, but I do not know how long they have or if theirs have the same plastic end caps.
While I had the ST apart, I measured its filter area. It was the first of the new black canister ones I have cut apart. I was surprised to find more filter area than the old blue ones, 189 sq.in. That is more than the older ones, as much or more than anything equivalent except the AC.
The one point I do have to agree on is that people are very subjective about Fram. I feel cheated and mislead. I think the board would filter out where it must freeze over before I buy another one. I am more concerned about the lack of filter media between the end caps than the end caps.
Is the new design required due to any new environmental rules coming up? If that was the case all brands will be changing eventually right?
Consequently these would be in the "guinea pig" stage that is proving out the design from a construction and useage point of view. Weak points/issues would be verified and corrected and finally a stable product would result.
If this is not caused by new EPA rules, then it would be a cost cutting move that hopefully has the benefit of improved or at least comparable performance.
Like anything that has a major design change, it is probably a good idea to let those who live life on the edge prove out the initial mass production stage, working out the kinks so to speak, and thus making life safer for the rest of us...skeptics
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Personally I think the design may have a couple of advantages,
1.the oil has better access to 100% of the media (rather than concentrating at the center tube perforations)
2.no chance of any loose rust internally due to center tube/cartridge end caps at least..
Just have to give them some time to verify performance, change is not neccessarily a bad thing.
Consequently these would be in the "guinea pig" stage that is proving out the design from a construction and useage point of view. Weak points/issues would be verified and corrected and finally a stable product would result.
If this is not caused by new EPA rules, then it would be a cost cutting move that hopefully has the benefit of improved or at least comparable performance.
Like anything that has a major design change, it is probably a good idea to let those who live life on the edge prove out the initial mass production stage, working out the kinks so to speak, and thus making life safer for the rest of us...skeptics
Personally I think the design may have a couple of advantages,
1.the oil has better access to 100% of the media (rather than concentrating at the center tube perforations)
2.no chance of any loose rust internally due to center tube/cartridge end caps at least..
Just have to give them some time to verify performance, change is not neccessarily a bad thing.
Radial tires were proven tire technology until Firestone and Goodyear almost convinced the American public they weren't any good in the 1970s by making radials that fell apart. Goodyear and Firestone both tried to manufacture radial on equipment that wasn't designed to build radials to save money.
Diesel engine were proven technology in passenger cars until GM "proved" to the American public that passenger car diesels were crap with their lousy passenger car diesels in the 1970s.
Please use the new Champion filters for few years and report back. I would like to try them if they still look good then.
I have no doubt that a good reliable filter of the type Champion is building can be built. It remains to be seen whether or not Champion is doing it.
I think Champion provides a lot of bang for the buck and applaud them for it, but I'm not going to be their Beta tester on mi$$ion critical parts.
are they using fram techniques with the "thermally bonded non-metallic end caps" also know as carboard, or will this be plastic also like the inner core?
I dont see any reason to switch from purolater or the filter of choice to a untested one.
There have been a lot of test of filters on this site and some have proven to be very good why would you abanded your present filter. One note here,GM is recalling a lot of plastic fuel rails on their northstar engines because of leaking. Mike
There have been a lot of test of filters on this site and some have proven to be very good why would you abanded your present filter. One note here,GM is recalling a lot of plastic fuel rails on their northstar engines because of leaking. Mike
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Can you say how long that design has been around?
I just took a look at the filter at WalMart...MAN that thing is a lot ligher than the regular one (mixed stock on shelf)...something to think about for racecars. As long as it has some sort of assurance from the manufacturer (warranty or otherwise), I'd go ahead and use it, at least for short(er) OCI's of 3K-5K until more testing can be done, although I cannot see a reputable manufacturer put that kind of design out on the line to the automotive mainstream if it was junk (Fram guys look away!)
-JamesW
Suzuki -- takes the 3614 or 2951
-JamesW
Suzuki -- takes the 3614 or 2951
Well here's my first post in these forums.
Let me begin by saying I worked for Champion Labs from 1982 until 2000. I continue to work in the filtration field, in Hydraulics and Pnuematics.
But a friend of mine sent me a link to this site and this thread. He's a "fleet" owner with 5 cars. He never sells anything..lol. But in days gone by we used to work on cars together. We live in different States now.
My job at Champ ran the gammit from sales to marketing to training. I also represented Champion as a technical committe representative on the Filter Manufacturers Council for about 3 years , which includes all those Companies that build Filters in the USA. Here's their website:
http://www.filtercouncil.org/
So I think I know a little about filters.
Let me clarify a few issues that i've read on this thread.
First: For those who don't know who Champion Laboratories are...they are the #1 private labeller of automotive and heavy duty filters in North America and #2 worldwide. They build about 500,000 filters a day. They have the engine plant business for Ford ( which is a different filter than Motocraft), engine plant business for VW/Audi in the US and Mexico, and some others. Not to mention 100's of private label accounts from Harley to Caterpillar. Also some of the Oil companies filters like Valvoline, Shell, Mobil 1, etc.
Second; Yes this is a new design, Ecore. However, some of you are speculating that all filter companies will build similar designs. Maybe even metal center tube and end cap filters will become a thing of the past.
If you stop and think of what a filter company has to do to build a certain design, you may come to realize, metal center tubes and end caps are going to be with us a long, long time.
Champion invested in a special production line in order to run the Ecore design. The rest of their plant facilities are dedicated to the standard design that we all have come to know and love.
The same would be true if a different manufacturer would want to build a similar design. It will take heavy investment on their part. Will they do it? I can't answer for sure but if the market is going that way, then they will. But it will take some time before they are up and running if they do.
As for cartridge elements, yes they are going the way of being environmentally friendly and you will see more and more automotive manufacturers incorporate this into their engine design. That is what will drive the market. Not a retrofit on existing vehicles.
Can you imagine being told you can't use a spin-on fitler any more and you must convert over to a cartridge.? I don't see it happening.
Third: I had a laugh at the posts about "plastics and Nylon". In the hydraulic industry these type filtration products have been used for years to great success. In high..very high..temperature applications and under very high pressures ( as much as 6,000psi). It all depends on what the specifications are what a manufacturer needs to use.
One thing I know about Champion is they darn sure aren't going to use any product in their filter element construction which won't exceed what the worst case scenario is that the element construction may encounter. The obvious answer is due to warranty considerations. It's not worth it to build a X dollar filter sold at retail and have to pay thousands in engine warranty claims. You don't make profits that way.
Fourth: One of Champions strengths as a manufacturer is their ability to make the component parts of the filter in house. So they stamp out their own cans, back plate assemblies, make their own relief valves, end caps, center tubes, and most critically blend their own glues ( or plastisol is the correct term ). I'm reasonably confident they do the same for the Ecore element.
Fifth: The Ecore design is limited to certain part numbers and you will see it under various names due to the private labelling Champ does.
But it won't be for every part number they build unless they convert every production line.
Btw..I use the SuperTec filter on my personal car, wich is why I was pointed to this thread. Why do I use SuperTec, you might ask. It is the best filter for efficiency at removing contaminant out of oil for the price and out performs even the expensive Fram element. I used to use the AC Duraguard Gold element, also built by Champ, until the idiots at AC decided they didn't want to mess with a high end, high price element. That was a Great filter. If you want a better filter than SuperTec, then use the Mobil 1 element.
Oh, and I use Mobil 1 oil. After all my training sessions where I had to listen to the oil men pitch their product and I did the filter bit, that's what I figured was best. I use oil analysis every oil change and change my oil at about 15,000 miles. I could push it to 20,000 or more if I really wanted but that's my safety factor.
Let me begin by saying I worked for Champion Labs from 1982 until 2000. I continue to work in the filtration field, in Hydraulics and Pnuematics.
But a friend of mine sent me a link to this site and this thread. He's a "fleet" owner with 5 cars. He never sells anything..lol. But in days gone by we used to work on cars together. We live in different States now.
My job at Champ ran the gammit from sales to marketing to training. I also represented Champion as a technical committe representative on the Filter Manufacturers Council for about 3 years , which includes all those Companies that build Filters in the USA. Here's their website:
http://www.filtercouncil.org/
So I think I know a little about filters.
Let me clarify a few issues that i've read on this thread.
First: For those who don't know who Champion Laboratories are...they are the #1 private labeller of automotive and heavy duty filters in North America and #2 worldwide. They build about 500,000 filters a day. They have the engine plant business for Ford ( which is a different filter than Motocraft), engine plant business for VW/Audi in the US and Mexico, and some others. Not to mention 100's of private label accounts from Harley to Caterpillar. Also some of the Oil companies filters like Valvoline, Shell, Mobil 1, etc.
Second; Yes this is a new design, Ecore. However, some of you are speculating that all filter companies will build similar designs. Maybe even metal center tube and end cap filters will become a thing of the past.
If you stop and think of what a filter company has to do to build a certain design, you may come to realize, metal center tubes and end caps are going to be with us a long, long time.
Champion invested in a special production line in order to run the Ecore design. The rest of their plant facilities are dedicated to the standard design that we all have come to know and love.
The same would be true if a different manufacturer would want to build a similar design. It will take heavy investment on their part. Will they do it? I can't answer for sure but if the market is going that way, then they will. But it will take some time before they are up and running if they do.
As for cartridge elements, yes they are going the way of being environmentally friendly and you will see more and more automotive manufacturers incorporate this into their engine design. That is what will drive the market. Not a retrofit on existing vehicles.
Can you imagine being told you can't use a spin-on fitler any more and you must convert over to a cartridge.? I don't see it happening.
Third: I had a laugh at the posts about "plastics and Nylon". In the hydraulic industry these type filtration products have been used for years to great success. In high..very high..temperature applications and under very high pressures ( as much as 6,000psi). It all depends on what the specifications are what a manufacturer needs to use.
One thing I know about Champion is they darn sure aren't going to use any product in their filter element construction which won't exceed what the worst case scenario is that the element construction may encounter. The obvious answer is due to warranty considerations. It's not worth it to build a X dollar filter sold at retail and have to pay thousands in engine warranty claims. You don't make profits that way.
Fourth: One of Champions strengths as a manufacturer is their ability to make the component parts of the filter in house. So they stamp out their own cans, back plate assemblies, make their own relief valves, end caps, center tubes, and most critically blend their own glues ( or plastisol is the correct term ). I'm reasonably confident they do the same for the Ecore element.
Fifth: The Ecore design is limited to certain part numbers and you will see it under various names due to the private labelling Champ does.
But it won't be for every part number they build unless they convert every production line.
Btw..I use the SuperTec filter on my personal car, wich is why I was pointed to this thread. Why do I use SuperTec, you might ask. It is the best filter for efficiency at removing contaminant out of oil for the price and out performs even the expensive Fram element. I used to use the AC Duraguard Gold element, also built by Champ, until the idiots at AC decided they didn't want to mess with a high end, high price element. That was a Great filter. If you want a better filter than SuperTec, then use the Mobil 1 element.
Oh, and I use Mobil 1 oil. After all my training sessions where I had to listen to the oil men pitch their product and I did the filter bit, that's what I figured was best. I use oil analysis every oil change and change my oil at about 15,000 miles. I could push it to 20,000 or more if I really wanted but that's my safety factor.
I've never seen a Motorcraft filter made by Champion Labs other than the gray OEM factory fitment filters and the FL1A-HP. All the ones I've taken apart were obviously made by Purolator.
I'm indifferent about this new Champion filter. The open core may allow slightly better flow but I doubt the core was the major flow restriction in the old filters.
I don't know if I care for the molded bypass valve. I prefer the coil spring setup on the Purolators but at least it's in the right place now on the new Champion instead of on the far end of the dirty element. This one is probably at least as good as the older Champion "clicker" valve though.
I wouldn't worry much about the plastic core support. It's not a big deal to find moldable materials that will operate at these temperatures and keep their properties for any reasonable length of time.
What surprises me is the thiking that this is a *much* cheaper filter to build than the old one. I doubt it. It looks like this filter would be much faster to assemble automaticly but I'm not sure the parts cost is much less and could even be more. I think that's the reason the filters are shorter. The savings in case and filter material were probably required to allow the price to come in under the old ones.
So what we might have is some savings in assembly costs and some in case and filter media, but a bit more spent in a couple of precision molded parts.
The net result I don't think is much different, but even $.03 cost savings matters if you make enough of something...
jsharp..
Take my word for it Champion does make various models of Motocraft filters besides the all the Ford engine plant grey painted oil filters.
You're also correct that Purolator is the other supplier.
As you live in Illinois, go over to where Champ is located and see the Motocraft trucks come to the shipping docks..
Take my word for it Champion does make various models of Motocraft filters besides the all the Ford engine plant grey painted oil filters.
You're also correct that Purolator is the other supplier.
As you live in Illinois, go over to where Champ is located and see the Motocraft trucks come to the shipping docks..
Filter guy, welcome to BITOG. Sounds like you can throw some light on some heated topics here. '' out performs even the expensive Fram element.'' Could you tell us some more about that? Any idiot with a tape measure and a hacksaw can verify that Frams have cardboard end caps and very small filter elements. There is a great lack of objective material here about how much difference that makes. I fall into the camp of ''the more filter area, the better''. I am willing to listen to reason and look at numbers on quality of filter media.
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