New design for Super Tech ST3614

[dickwells]

"Now,some will say that this new design flows better.If we go back not long ago,Bob tested a Fram and it showed very little resistance to flow.
"

I dont't recall the specifics of Bobs test but the worst rap on Fram in my view is that the bypass valves leak badly, this would account for little resistance if the filter he used had one.

 

[nascarnation]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ugly3:
Would Wal*Mart sell anything that was not top notch?

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My closest Wal-Mart in Indianapolis is phasing out Super Techs and the orange wall of doom is increasing in size gradually.....

 

[BlazerLT]

I can't see how people are even close to comparing the new design to the Fram cardboard filters.

 

[Ray H]

"Starrt likin' it!" The Champion Labs e-core (tm) and similar competitive technologies are harbingers of all future oil filter construction and, yes, they ARE at least partly driven by economics. (BFD - what isn't?) As to the notion that thermal plastics in oil filters are some evil device of the devil, I've never come across failure of nylon components under high heat unless the component was also under physical stress. (Duhhh!) By the way, Champion Labs does pointedly mention on their website that, although the overall size of these filters has been reduced, by combining the ADB and bypass valves, they're able to pack a greater area of filtration media area inside.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
, I've never come across failure of nylon components under high heat unless the component was also under physical stress. (Duhhh!)

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If there is no physical stress on a mechanical part, then that part is not needed.

 

[ULVER]

I think they should call it "TupperWEAR."

 

[motorguy222]

I have WITNESSED first hand the failing of plastic/nylon.The stress of getting hot and then cooling off can make such brittle.

When it gets brittle,it cracks and can break.

The heat can also distort and warp it.

Will this happen to the new filter materials?

I don't know,it would be very difficult to truly know what happens to the components while they are in use on an engine.

As far as being compared to Fram,what is the real difference between the two.

We basically have plastic versus cardboard.

Is either one any better in an environment of hot engine oil?

Will gas that gets in the oil affect the plastic?

Will the plastic distort and hinder filtration?

What is the real difference?

I don't know the answers to these questions and I don't think at this time anyone else truly does either.

Each of us can speculate,however,it is just that,speculation.

The filters may be fine but I will stay with those with metal internals as long as I can.

 

[motorguy222]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:

.And I have WITNESSED, fist hand, in the course of adjusting nylon spectacle frames over 30 years in my career as an optometrist, that the stuff withstands tremendous heat in the salt pan ->300 degrees F. - without distorting, turning brittle, or breaking. (Frames made of nylon HAVE to be heated to a high temperature to even allow adjusting to the patient's head. And, don't believe it's an easy procedure when you have to do the adjusting with gloves on!) In fact, nylon has one of the highest rates of "memory" (plastic's tendency to return to its original molded or cut shape over time) of ANY plastic.But nylon will break long after a similar stress rated stamped metal part distorts under the same stress.

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Ray,you may be correct,however,I HAVE as I said,witnessed FIRST hand the distortion and breakage of plastic,nylon.

This was in industry where a person sees the every day use of this type of product in an environment of heating for minutes to 1-3 hours and then the cooling down to room temp of the product.This was done over and over for 6-9 hours a day and 5-6 days a week.

Sometimes it was 12-14 hours a day 4-5 days a week.

The cycle was repeated during the day.Get hot,stay that way for 20 minutes-2 hours and then cooled down.Over and over again.

This would be more on the lines of auto use than how it is used in your industry.

Don't get me wrong,I am just making a point in the way the product is used in the different areas here.

It DOES distort and after several uses,the distortion can become permanent.

After several uses,it could and DID crack and break.

Did it do this all of the time? No.

It did do it quite often though.

When it did break,it was a BIG problem and caused a lot of trouble.

It seems that until there is some REAL proof of the new design being acceptable,I will stay with the metal internals and we will just have to agree to disagree.

On another note,I used to use Fram more than any other filter,almost exclusively,I never had any problem with them.

[ October 22, 2004, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: motorguy222 ]

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
And I have WITNESSED, fist hand, in the course of adjusting nylon spectacle frames over 30 years in my career as an optometrist, that the stuff withstands tremendous heat in the salt pan - >300 degrees F. - without distorting, turning brittle, or breaking.

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300F is a temperature abused or hard run engine oil temps reach. That's handy if you want the filter to self adjust while your engine is running

Hopefully Champton has taken that into considerationa and used the right formulation of Nylon.

Something that doesn't work in their favor is that the Nylons with the best oil and fuel resistance tend to be the lower temperature Nylons.

Please run some of the new Champions good and hot and report back

I suspect they will be OK, but just remember, car companies spend multi millions to design new engines that are crap. There is no reason a filter company can't design a flop of a filter.

Now, where did I leave my tinfoil hat?

 

[nthach]

STP is now using this new design on the 3614s.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by motorguy222:
I have WITNESSED first hand the failing of plastic/nylon.The stress of getting hot and then cooling off can make such brittle.

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And I have WITNESSED, fist hand, in the course of adjusting nylon spectacle frames over 30 years in my career as an optometrist, that the stuff withstands tremendous heat in the salt pan - >300 degrees F. - without distorting, turning brittle, or breaking. (Frames made of nylon HAVE to be heated to a high temperature to even allow adjusting to the patient's head. And, don't believe it's an easy procedure when you have to do the adjusting with gloves on!) In fact, nylon has one of the highest rates of "memory" (plastic's tendency to return to its original molded or cut shape over time) of ANY plastic. This was such a problem for optometrists and opticians that frame manufacturers no longer make frames out of nylon. Can nylon by broken? Of course it can - as can any substance exposed to localized excessive torsional or shearing stress. But nylon will break long after a similar stress rated stamped metal part distorts under the same stress. I'll take my chances with a nylon cage in lieu of a thin metal cage once I've used my stash of metal construction conventional oil filters. I'll also welcome the uniform machine consistency of heat bonded nylon-paper joints over the inconsistencies of adhesive bonded paper-paper or paper-metal joints. Some of us revel in the past, and some of us eagerly anticipate the future. By the way, motorguy222, I am in complete agreement with you about Fram. I don't use 'em myself, but aside from price considerations, I believe the brand is unfairly targeted by "armchair engineer wannabees" with an axe to grind.

[ October 22, 2004, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[motorguy222]

STP filters are made by Champion Labs.

Champion makes STP,LEE,LEE MAXI,Bosch,Super Tech,Motorcraft,CHAMP,some ACDELCO,OEM filters for manufacturers,ValueCraft,Mobil 1 and untelling how many other private label filters.

These filters will probably be switched if they have not been already,to the new design.

 

[motorguy222]

After looking at and reading about this new design,I find it hard for anyone to bash Fram.

This new design in my opinion is the CHEAPEST looking filter I have ever seen.

The new PH8A model is a half inch shorter than it is now,other models are also smaller.The filter element is smaller but is 'supposed' to flow better.

It also seems that Champoin is kind of pulling a fast one on people in the write up about it.

In the write up,it states that the filter has 2 paths of flow.One regular path and one for cold starts/clogged filters.

This would apply to ANY filter that goes on an engine that doesnt have the pressure relief valve built into the oil system.
Many may not know this and Champion seems to be banking on this fact in order to make the filter sound innovative.

People have bashed Fram for their tactics,it seems that Champion is not any better.

I just think that this is a very cheaply made filter.

As XS650 said,it may be a flop.

 

[goodvibes]

No clicker valve, more/larger opening in and out for oil to flow through, more media, less waste from empty space, and I prefer a properly bonded edge to a glued one as there is less chance of a leak. If the materials hold up, this could be a great filter. Sure, everthing could be better but this filter looks like it should work and stay cheap which is a big part of these champions popularity.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by motorguy222:


The new PH8A model is a half inch shorter than it is now,other models are also smaller.The filter element is smaller but is 'supposed' to flow better.

I just think that this is a very cheaply made filter.

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I have clipped your post severely, my apologies if I have destroyed the meaning of it

Several people have found Frams in failed conditions. I cut open a new Fram many years ago and the cardboard end cap wasn't fully glued on. Most anyone who has had an upside down mounted filter and was awake when they started their engine is aware of how unreliable Fram ADBVs are. A leaky ADBV -is- a failed filter.

I'm not ready to put Champion's new filter in the same category as Fram. New technology can simplify, reduce cost and increase performance all at the same time. Champion may have done things right....Nonetheless, I will let others be Champion's beta testers for a couple of years before I try one

One place I think we fully agree is that Champion shouldn't have downsized their filters. They should have kept the same sizes and published their performance gains.

 

[slalom44]

This was a design change that was very necessary for Champion Labs. I have been very leary of the previous design ever since I had two (yes, two) ST3614 oil filters fail last winter due to the clicker bypass valves they use.

T-Keith: Could you please comment on the ADBV/bypass valve? Could you guesstimate how much pressure it would take to get it to go into bypass? Does anyone else have any comments on this bypass valve? Is it spring loaded? Can it leak?

Just from the looks of it, the bypass valve looks like a vast improvement over the clicker they previously used. If the bypass valve can do the job, I will definitely switch over to this filter.

 

[T-Keith]

OK, guys I'll get more pics and a better explanation soon. I have yet to find a filter in my 3387 size, so it probably won't go on my website until then.

To those worried about plastic, get used it, almost every filter will have it someday. Many filter use plastic in their design(including all ecotec filters). Plastic comes in many forms, just like oil. I've seen a plastic fork melt, big deal, that's obviously not what the filter is made of.

I can also tell you that the fit of the parts is about 10 times better then any Fram I've cut apart, however they do have some design elements in common.

Looking at a couple poor pictures doesn't give you a very good idea of what a filter is like.

-T

 

[motorguy222]

Just to update why I think as I do.I was at WM yesterday afternoon and checked some of the ST filters.I found one that is a cartidge type replacement that is made with the new plastic design.
In the one I examined,all of the plastic is black,cage and ends.

Everything on this filter is open and in plain site and clear view.

I just cant keep from thinking how extremely CHEAP looking it is.It just doesnt look like a very reliable filter.
There is NOTHING between the main frame of the plastic cage to hold the filter element in place.

There is no center support to replace the metal tube that used to exist.

Considering the support that a metal cylinder gives compared to the small flimsy plastic cage,there is NO way that the support is the same.
It just is NOT possible.

I know that the plastic cage is supposed to do such but it just doesnt look like a good design to me.

While some may say that it is unfair to compare this new design to Fram,I say,not really.
Champion has decided to,in my opinion,cut costs and since they bashed the cardboard use by Fram,they went to plastic.

How many on this board would be praising this filter if it was a Fram design?

I would say few if ANY.

It would be bashed and put down as a cheap design and a bad product.

Those that like this design are free to use it all they want.I however will continue to use the metal design for as long as possible.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by XS650:
...I think Champion provides a lot of bang for the buck and applaud them for it...

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Which is exactly why I'm willing to extend Champion Labs the benefit of the doubt on this one. Unlike Fram, owned by the Honeywell conglomerate, and for whom filters are just one more (lucrative) division, Champion Labs lives and breathes automotive filtration technology as its mainstay income generator.

[ October 25, 2004, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[T-Keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by 73Duster:
are they using fram techniques with the "thermally bonded non-metallic end caps" also know as cardboard, or will this be plastic also like the inner core?

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Nope no cardboard. It seems to be almost a foam or plastic. Find a VW diesel filter and take a look at the endcaps.

-T