New Chevy Cruze Is Best Small Car GM

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
A loaded Civic has an msrp of $27,500. Good luck getting a decent discount on that car. A basic new Corolla can be had for almost half of that. While a new Cruze that has a sticker of $26k can be had for around 20k.

Why do you compare a load Civic with a base Corolla ?

It is like comparing a 20 years old 2000 sq-ft house with 5 years old 3000 sq-ft house across the street. Both houses are on the same street, right ?


Because both cars are the SAME SIZE AND THE SAME AGE!!!

 

[HTSS_TR]

Then compare base Civic with base Corolla. This is a comparison of the 2 base cars from Toyota.com

Originally Posted By: Toyota.com
Corolla LE 1.8L 4-cyl CVT vs Civic Sedan LX CVT 2.0L I4

Comparably Equipped Price $19,570 vs $20,324
Fuel Economy (city) 29 vs 31
Fuel Economy (hwy) 38 vs 41
Horsepower 132@6000 vs 158@6500
Torque 128@4400 vs 138@4200



http://www.toyota.com/corolla/compare/summary/41396/42969

Look at the link for yourself. This is how to compare various vehicles, don't compare most expensive one with cheapest one.

The only advantage that Toyota has over Honda is $$750 cheaper.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

Yes, they use a combined passenger and cargo volume to classify vehicle class. This is much more useful than exterior dimension.


Sometimes I wonder if you actually believe what you post. Tell me that using interior volume is more important when classifying a vehicle size when you try to park your 18 foot long Rolls in a parking spot labeled "COMPACT" at the airport.

"I don't know what to tell you. It fits fine. The EPA says it's a compact.."

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
If you think using the EPA as a basis for "official" vehicle classification is dumb, then which classification to use ? Use car rental classification ? Or yours, and what is that ?


The Euro Market Segment is a pretty solid start. Unlike the EPA's method you think is great, Europeans apply just a small amount of common sense. Generally, automakers build cars that are pretty comparable to one another in terms of size. A Corolla is about the same size as a Cruze... and a Civic... and a Dart... and a Focus... and a Mazda 3... and an Elantra. The Europeans call this a C-segment car. Applying a little logic, you can call it a compact. Moving up the ladder, a Camry is about the same size as an Accord... and a Fusion... and a Mazda 6... and a Malibu... and a 200. These are D-segment cars... but we'll call them midsize because they're physically BIGGER than a C-segment, but smaller than the next class... E-segment (or full size, if you prefer).

This works because, again, automakers generally build cars that fit into a common size and market niche as other automakers. Nobody is making a car the size of a Ford Taurus and trying to market it as a competitor of a Honda Fit. Applying common sense, a Taurus competes in the E-segment and the Fit in the B-segment.

This isn't difficult. It's actually quite simple.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Where are we ? Are you in Europe ? How many posters of this site are European ?

When we talk about gas mileage we don't talk about European cycle gas mileage we talk about EPA gas mileage. When we talk about vehicle warranty we talk about warranty in US not in Germany or England. When we talk gasoline octane we talk about 87, 89 and 91(and 93 in some states) in US, we don't talk about 98, 101 ... in Europe.

There is only one official vehicle size class we use in US and that is EPA. The unofficial class is from Rental car company and nobody use it to discuss on any website. If EPA classification is not official in US, which one is ?

I am not smart, but I know where I live and I know what I am talking about. I don't live in Europe so I don't care what is the standard in Europe.


PS How many people in US know anything about "The Euro Market Segment" ? Most don't even know EPA classification.

I don't think EPA classification of car size is great, but it is the official one so I use it.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

There is only one official vehicle size class we use in US and that is EPA.


Imagine if the IIHS, Consumer Reports, and JD Powers use the same brainless classification system:

Quote:
...and in the news: Consumer Reports calls the Rolls Royce Phantom Coupe a Best Buy in compact cars, IIHS names the BMW 650i Gran Coupe a TopPick+ for compact cars, and JD Power awards the Toyota Corolla best in initial quality for midsize cars.


Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
When we talk about...


When we talk about cars, nobody with any sense talks about an Aston Martin DB9 being in the same class as a Fiat 500. Both are classified as minicompacts.

Some more fun: The Chevrolet Sonic, Cruze, Malibu, and Impala are all in the same midsize class. Literally every car Chevrolet makes that has four doors is a midsize car!

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

There is only one official vehicle size class we use in US and that is EPA.


Imagine if the IIHS, Consumer Reports, and JD Powers use the same brainless classification system:

Quote:
...and in the news: Consumer Reports calls the Rolls Royce Phantom Coupe a Best Buy in compact cars, IIHS names the BMW 650i Gran Coupe a TopPick+ for compact cars, and JD Power awards the Toyota Corolla best in initial quality for midsize cars.


Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
When we talk about...


When we talk about cars, nobody with any sense talks about an Aston Martin DB9 being in the same class as a Fiat 500. Both are classified as minicompacts.

You still don't accept that you're wrong. Everybody in US, including manufacture, when talking about size they use EPA classification.

When we talk about car sizes in US, then you have to use official classification. I asked you more than once, what is the other official classification for car size in US if not EPA ?

When you talk about car performance and/or luxury class and/or price then size doesn't matter.

Aston Martin is the class of Porsche and Ferrari ... not the ordinary cars that average consumers would buy for daily use.

 

[opus1]

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: opus1
The deal-breaker for me is that Chevy is starting to import Cruzes (Cruzi?) from Mexico, and the upcoming hatch is going to be built exclusively in Mexico for import here.


See, I don't understand this line of thinking. GM turned to Mexican production at Ramos Arizpe because Lordstown is at capacity. They're running three shifts in Ohio and still need more vehicles. Ramos is picking up that excess need. It's a bad thing that people want to buy the car and GM is adapting to demand? What is the alternative? Not build and sell as many cars?

For the hatch, Ramos already builds a hatch for other markets. Stamping is already done there and all the tooling is already in place for hatch assembly. Lordstown isn't tooled for hatch assembly. Hatchback demand is an unknown at this point and I'd imagine production will be limited when compared to the sedan. Why would GM make a significant capital investment based on unknown demand when there is already a plant available that builds the hatchback and has the capacity to build in the quantities needed? Also, as noted above, Lordstown can't build enough sedans as it is. How are they going to add another variant to a plant that already running three shifts?

It's such a conflicting sentiment. If you want GM to keep building cars in America, GM needs to be healthy. To be healthy, GM needs flexibility and adaptability in their manufacturing.

Yeah, I get it, it's just business. But I'm one of those silly people who would prefer my "American" car be made in America.

 

[userfriendly]

opus 1;
That may require more 'right to work' legislation.
Personally, I would rather not belong to a terrorist organization called union.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

You still don't accept that you're wrong. Everybody in US, including manufacture, when talking about size they use EPA classification.


Actually, he makes a lot of sense. Does GM classify the Sonic as a mid-sized car as per his last point? The answer to that question is of course no. So that vetoes your 2nd point above. What I'm seeing is you intentionally hanging on to a classification system that is a glaring affront to reason when approached logically, not because you really like that system but because it supports your position and you can hang your hat on it being "official" despite it being borderline useless. Why does the Environmental Protection Agency get to be the official designate of car size BTW? That seems a bit silly in and of itself. The Euro system does, as he indicated, make perfect sense, dismissing it because it is European is just as silly as your argument for using the EPA system.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

You still don't accept that you're wrong. Everybody in US, including manufacture, when talking about size they use EPA classification.

Actually, he makes a lot of sense. Does GM classify the Sonic as a mid-sized car as per his last point? The answer to that question is of course no. So that vetoes your 2nd point above. What I'm seeing is you intentionally hanging on to a classification system that is a glaring affront to reason when approached logically, not because you really like that system but because it supports your position and you can hang your hat on it being "official" despite it being borderline useless. Why does the Environmental Protection Agency get to be the official designate of car size BTW? That seems a bit silly in and of itself. The Euro system does, as he indicated, make perfect sense, dismissing it because it is European is just as silly as your argument for using the EPA system.

Because they do the fuel economy, so they need to classify car size class to compare MPG of various makes/models of the same class.

I don't know what GM classify their Sonic, they're wrong if they don't use EPA classification in comparing their vehicles(Sonic in this case) with others.

EPA car size classification is useful or useless is another story, but as it is now it is the only "Official Classification" of vehicle size used in US.

As I said, if we don't use EPA standard size class then what we do use to compare MPG of various vehicles ? Should we use size class of car rental ? which car rental company should we use ? If not car rental and not EPA which do we use ? A new standard ? Who will develop a new standard(Car manufacture ? Which one ?) ? Who will qualify that standard ?

It is a mess, so for now the only size class we can use to discuss(in US) is EPA.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

Because they do the fuel economy, so they need to classify car size class to compare MPG of various makes/models of the same class.


But their method of doing so is ridiculous. Many of these cars with the same interior volume are all over the map weight and overall size-wise, whether I can squeeze 15 hotdogs or 15 newfound dogs into the interior is somewhat irrelevant if the one that fits 15 hot dogs weighs 5,600lbs vs 2,400lbs for the one with larger interior space, follow? The additional weight of the physically larger vehicle is going to have a much greater impact on fuel economy (and subsequently emissions) than how well that manufacturer has managed their interior space relative to a car half its size.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I don't know what GM classify their Sonic, they're wrong if they don't use EPA classification in comparing their vehicles(Sonic in this case) with others.


GM doesn't classify it, that's the point! Going by the EPA classification, the Sonic is in the same class as a car massively larger than it simply because they share similar interior volumes. Follow?

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
EPA car size classification is useful or useless is another story, but as it is now it is the only "Official Classification" of vehicle size used in US.


But it isn't another story, the merit of this classification is what is being debated, because of how little sense it makes.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
As I said, if we don't use EPA standard size class then what we do use to compare MPG of various vehicles ? Should we use size class of car rental ? which car rental company should we use ? If not car rental and not EPA which do we use ? A new standard ? Who will develop a new standard(Car manufacture ? Which one ?) ? Who will qualify that standard ?

It is a mess, so for now the only size class we can use to discuss(in US) is EPA.


How about logic and common sense as starting points? A car like the Honda Fit or Chevy sonic are comparable in size. The Civic, Corolla, Dart/200, Focus....etc are again, all similar in size. Large cars like the Charger, 300, Taurus, 7-series....etc are... Large cars.

Implicitly binding oneself to an illogical mechanism simply because it is "official" should, at some point, cause one to question the merit of such an approach. My hope here is that you will have that breakthrough moment during this conversation so that it can continue, as MrHorspwer has made some great points that are being dismissed simply due to his opposition to the EPA system, which, as I've noted, is a view I share.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
How about logic and common sense as starting points? A car like the Honda Fit or Chevy sonic are comparable in size. The Civic, Corolla, Dart/200, Focus....etc are again, all similar in size. Large cars like the Charger, 300, Taurus, 7-series....etc are... Large cars.

Implicitly binding oneself to an illogical mechanism simply because it is "official" should, at some point, cause one to question the merit of such an approach. My hope here is that you will have that breakthrough moment during this conversation so that it can continue, as MrHorspwer has made some great points that are being dismissed simply due to his opposition to the EPA system, which, as I've noted, is a view I share.

The only "Official" size class is from a government agency. There is no such thing as official size class from insurance companies or car rental companies or any private entity.

Doesn't matter which formula and/or calculation used to classify size class it will not be correct 100% for all vehicles. And it will not agreed 100% of all people.

You can share anyone view, but that doesn't make "Official EPA" size class wrong.

I stand with my view, "Official" size class of all vehicles available in US are EPA class. As far as I know all new vehicles for sale in US have "Window Sticker", that sticker identifies the gas mileage of that vehicle and the size class and min&max gas mileage of all vehicles of that class. Is there any document more "Official" than that ?

It is more accurate in discussing if we use the same document, same standard, same measurement from an authorized government agency. It doesn't make sense to say: In my opinion this car A is this class X and that car B is class Y based on blah blah blah, because someone else may disagree and may say car A is class Y and car B is class X, because of this and that ...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

The only "Official" size class is from a government agency. There is no such thing as official size class from insurance companies or car rental companies or any private entity.


Yet you fail to acknowledge the "official" European class system (that makes massively more sense) simply because it isn't American? You do realize that being American isn't a requirement for something to be regarded as official, right?

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Doesn't matter which formula and/or calculation used to classify size class it will not be correct 100% for all vehicles. And it will not agreed 100% of all people.


Well, you couldn't get much worse than the EPA system here, so.....

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
You can share anyone view, but that doesn't make "Official EPA" size class wrong.


And your relentless support and constant repetition that it is "official" doesn't make it any better a system.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I stand with my view, "Official" size class of all vehicles available in US are EPA class. As far as I know all new vehicles for sale in US have "Window Sticker", that sticker identifies the gas mileage of that vehicle and the size class and min&max gas mileage of all vehicles of that class. Is there any document more "Official" than that ?


Well, how many countries, other than the US, use the EPA system? That's like ignoring the metric system because you don't use it either. And I quite honestly didn't expect you to change your mind, we've been down this road enough times that I know that's a lost cause.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
It is more accurate in discussing if we use the same document, same standard, same measurement from an authorized government agency. It doesn't make sense to say: In my opinion this car A is this class X and that car B is class Y based on blah blah blah, because someone else may disagree and may say car A is class Y and car B is class X, because of this and that ...


Except this site consists of folks from all over the world that don't use EPA, don't use Imperial for measurement, Fahrenheit for temperature or Miles per Hour for speed. You are dealing with a global audience and yet we manage to, on many of these subjects, not only coexist, but have meaningful conversations. Like Imperial is not the only unit of measure, EPA is not the only unit of size class, the obstacle here seems to be for you to acknowledge that fact.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

I stand with my view, "Official" size class of all vehicles available in US are EPA class.


Then why did you call the Cruze a "small car" in the thread title? YOU started the thread. YOU came up with the thread title. YOU say the EPA is the only "official" car classification and they say the Cruze is a midsize.

So what it is? Is the EPA wrong or are you wrong?

If you actually bought into your cockamamie view, you would have titled the thread "New Chevy Cruze Is Best Midsize Car GM".

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

I stand with my view, "Official" size class of all vehicles available in US are EPA class.

Then why did you call the Cruze a "small car" in the thread title? YOU started the thread. YOU came up with the thread title. YOU say the EPA is the only "official" car classification and they say the Cruze is a midsize.

So what it is? Is the EPA wrong or are you wrong?

If you actually bought into your cockamamie view, you would have titled the thread "New Chevy Cruze Is Best Midsize Car GM".

That wasn't "my title", it was the title of the story in the link. The full title is "New Chevy Cruze Is Best Small Car GM Has Built in a Long Time". You can click the link below to see the full title. I didn't make up the title.

https://www.thestreet.com/story/13608523...&yptr=yahoo

Note that they use the name "small" which is not in EPA classification. "small" can be small externally or can be internally, it can be small compares with a larger car such as Toyota Avalon. Remember, small, large, giant ... are not official size class by EPA.

I said before and I am saying this again: The only size class of any vehicle available in US is defined by EPA. Why they use that formula isn't my concern. When we talk about "Compact" car on this site we are talking about EPA compact car, not European compact car, not South Korean compact car, not Japanese compact car, not Zimbabwean compact car, not Saudi Arabia compact car ...

One EPA compact car may have external dimension much larger than another EPA compact car, but both should have within 10 cf interior volume from one to another.

If there is another "Official" size class for vehicles in US please tell me what that is.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Yet you fail to acknowledge the "official" European class system (that makes massively more sense) simply because it isn't American? You do realize that being American isn't a requirement for something to be regarded as official, right?

When we talk about "compact" car available in US we are talking about EPA class, not European class, not South Korean class, not Zimbabwean class, not Iraqi class. I don't give a rat about other area class when we talk about cars in US.

In US there is only 1 "Official" car size classification and that is the one defined by EPA, not by mr X on website Z.

When I talk about car A in country Y then I may need to use that country class, but I am not talking about car A in country Y, I am talking about a car on sale in US.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Except this site consists of folks from all over the world that don't use EPA, don't use Imperial for measurement, Fahrenheit for temperature or Miles per Hour for speed. You are dealing with a global audience and yet we manage to, on many of these subjects, not only coexist, but have meaningful conversations. Like Imperial is not the only unit of measure, EPA is not the only unit of size class, the obstacle here seems to be for you to acknowledge that fact.

Every poster(very few of them) from other countries know that 99+% of posters on this site are North America(US and Canada) residences. They also know that we are talking about American standard, whatever it is.

When we talk about something on sale in Walmart, did anyone ever specifically post that this sale is only available in USA, not in South Korea nor in Europe nor in ... ? No, it is automatically understood that we are talking about USA, not Zimbabwe.

Did anyone started a thread about gasoline with 108 Octane ? No, only 91 or 93 or 87 or 89 octanes that are available in US.

Believe it or not, 99.99% of all thread starters are American and we are talking about cars available in America, not in Zimbabwe.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Yet you fail to acknowledge the "official" European class system (that makes massively more sense) simply because it isn't American? You do realize that being American isn't a requirement for something to be regarded as official, right?

When we talk about "compact" car available in US we are talking about EPA class, not European class, not South Korean class, not Zimbabwean class, not Iraqi class. I don't give a rat about other area class when we talk about cars in US.

In US there is only 1 "Official" car size classification and that is the one defined by EPA, not by mr X on website Z.

When I talk about car A in country Y then I may need to use that country class, but I am not talking about car A in country Y, I am talking about a car on sale in US.


You are talking about (or rather harping on about) the EPA class. Another poster brought up the European class as an example of a system that makes far more sense. Whether you care for that system or not, well, that's your prerogative, but it doesn't negate the ridiculousness of the EPA version, "official" or not.

And technically I don't use the EPA system either (being in Canada). We also use L/100Km instead of MPG on the window stickers. That doesn't make our system any better though, as it uses what is essentially an identical system (using interior volume) as can be seen here:

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/www.nrcan....icle_Tables.pdf

Which shows the Aston-Martin DB9 as a Minicompact, LOL!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

Every poster(very few of them) from other countries know that 99+% of posters on this site are North America(US and Canada) residences. They also know that we are talking about American standard, whatever it is.


Well that right there screws us, as there isn't much we have in common in terms of standards. You use miles, we use Km, you use Fahrenheit, we use Celcius, you use inches, we use centimeters, you use gallons, we use litres....etc.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
When we talk about something on sale in Walmart, did anyone ever specifically post that this sale is only available in USA, not in South Korea nor in Europe nor in ... ? No, it is automatically understood that we are talking about USA, not Zimbabwe.

I thought we were talking about the US and Canada (that's what you just said) now it is just the USA?

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Did anyone started a thread about gasoline with 108 Octane ? No, only 91 or 93 or 87 or 89 octanes that are available in US.


Actually yes, a few months ago actually, LOL! Some guy from England.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Believe it or not, 99.99% of all thread starters are American and we are talking about cars available in America, not in Zimbabwe.


American as in USA or American as in your first statement, including Canada? You keep moving things around here, so I'm trying to get that one nailed down. Just speaking as one Canadian member here, but I've started a lot of threads (617 to be exact) so I'm pretty sure that blows your 99.99% figure out the window if you were talking American as in USA only.

 

[HTSS_TR]

American is more or less people live North America, USA and Canada. But there are some differences between Canada and USA, especially when we talk about oil and gas price, tire ...

Let say, when someone talks about M1 at Walmart has roll down price to $22/jug, this is obviously about USA Walmart, not Walmart in Canada. Or someone complaint about $2.xx/gal, that person talk about gas price in USA not in Canada.

When someone who live in USA mentions car size he/she obviously intend to use USA classification, not European. And most American don't know what European classification is, and we don't care about it either, simple reason is we don't live in Europe and we simply don't give a rat about their rules or regulations.