New car speced for 87 runs better on 93...why?

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We can't have compressioin detonation before the valves are closed. So again, more confusion. How could cams matter? I'm going to wait for a while and think before I post again.




The cam controls when the valves open and close. Specs like Intake Center Line (ICL) and Lobe Seperation Angle (LSA) play a large roll in that. As simply put, ICL says how close to TDC valves open and close and LSA says how much overlap or cylinder pressure gets 'bled off.' Do a search on the net for these items and there will be pictures and graphs that explain it further. Lot's of good answers with trying to keep it simplistic.
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We can't have compressioin detonation before the valves are closed. So again, more confusion. How could cams matter? I'm going to wait for a while and think before I post again.




A more aggressive cam profile will allow more cylinder filling (at higher rpms). More air in the cylinder = more pressure = greater need for octane and more advanced ignition timing.

Ignition timing alters cylinder pressure as well. More advanced ignition timing = more cylinder pressure = a need fore more octane potentially, as the fuel mixture is burning under higher pressure/temperature, which could induce uncontrolled ignition of the fuel.
 
When you put a hot cam in an otherwise stock engine, the actual measured compression goes down. The intake closes later, resulting in much less 'squeeze'.
That's why performance builders use high/very high compression ratio pistons in built motors.
 
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When you put a hot cam in an otherwise stock engine, the actual measured compression goes down. The intake closes later, resulting in much less 'squeeze'.
That's why performance builders use high/very high compression ratio pistons in built motors.




Installing a "hot cam" doesn't always lower dynamic compression. You can do things like advancing the cam (which closes intake sooner) to increase the dynamic compression. You can be conservative on the intake side duration while being aggressive on the exhaust side duration. You can also go with different ramp rates such as CC's LSK lobes instead of their XER lobes which allows similar power bands with less low lift duration.

Of course, if you meant a "really hot cam" instead of just a "hot cam", then you are probably 100% correct.
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Hammer
 
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When you put a hot cam in an otherwise stock engine, the actual measured compression goes down. The intake closes later, resulting in much less 'squeeze'.
That's why performance builders use high/very high compression ratio pistons in built motors.




It's far more complex than that. Hotter cams help the cylinder to fill better. It may not fill as well at cranking speed, or even at lower engine speeds, but at whatever engine speed it was designed to help, cylinder filling is greatly improved. The results is considerably higher cylinder pressure at those engine speeds.

Higher compression does somewhat help with lower engine speed power, but usually higher compression is done for the additional power it generates all the way through the power curve, not just low end. Variable cam timing helps far more though.

Volumetric efficiency probably better describes what you are talking about. Cam timing, porting, valve size, intake flow-ability, exhaust flow-ability, even piston to crank relationship as defined by connecting rod length all have an impact on how efficiently the cylinder is filling.
 
I hope this doesn't take the thread off-topic but it kind of relates to something that's been on my mind. I've been getting a pinging/knocking in my car and the only variable I can think of is that I've been using Fuel Power products. Is it possible that using these products can actually create an engine knock? The noise does seem to come from right where the fuel rail/injectors/intake manifold is at on my Honda B18. The two experiments I'd like to do are to run a few tankfuls without any additives and see if that helps, or run a tank or two of Premium gas and see if that helps too. Anyone have any idea on that? Honda fuel injectors are ticky by nature but this sounds almost more like a pinging knock. It seems to increase in frequency when I accelerate as well. At first I thought it was an exhaust leak but I'm starting to think it's fuel related.

Oh, some more information:
The valves were adjusted 9k miles ago at the Acura dealership.
The Fuel Power product I've been using is FP3000.
The car is designed to run on 87 octane.
 
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Does the noise happen throughout the whole rpm range? A lot of times when you are just borderline with detonation/pinging, it only occurs under loads or around when the engine produces the most cylinder pressure (peak dynamic comp). Peak torque and peak cylinder pressure are usually really close (they are tied together) so that will give you an indication of what range to look for.

As for about cams, it's the exhaust valve closing that really dictates when/where dyn. comp increases. The 'race' cams have great durations and therefore the exhaust valve 'hangs' open much longer affecting low rpm cylinder pressure. There are some good simulations of how a cam affects performance and characteristics. I will see what I can find and post it. If you want a good book on engine design that fits both fairly new people to engineers is writen by David Vizard. Like I said before it's difficult to have a good conversation about IC engines and how they operate over a forum. I would find some good info and just start reading.
 
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It seems to increase in frequency when I accelerate as well.




some how I missed this sentence. Does it increase in frequency or is it just more pronounced when under acceleration? You're tests will help give you some more answers. I think you're on the right track in removing some of the changes you have made. It could have been the gas you last filled up on or it's possible the additive. Keep us updated and good luck.
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soobs just like to ping. espically the ej22. my fathers subaru is like this. it only pings for a few seconds. if yoiu give it more throttle to try and increase pinging, it goes away strangely enough.
we tried some things to fix, change fuel filter, maf, adjust valves, change the plugs, wires and coil.adjust tps. tested the injectors (they test fine) but we cleaned them anyways. we messed with the egr too.
after all that, its exactly the same! i like candybars. subaru likes pinging.
 
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It seems to increase in frequency when I accelerate as well.




some how I missed this sentence. Does it increase in frequency or is it just more pronounced when under acceleration? You're tests will help give you some more answers. I think you're on the right track in removing some of the changes you have made. It could have been the gas you last filled up on or it's possible the additive. Keep us updated and good luck.
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It's been doing this for a few months now so I don't think it's the particular station (I just go wherever it's cheapest, rarely the same station twice) but I will indeed keep an eye on it. When I figure out how to take out the fuel injectors I'm going to see if any of them are loose, etc. I just filled up yesterday and didn't put any FP in it, but I'm going to give it a few tanks to make any conclusions, as there's still half a tank that was treated with FP in there.
 
FWIW both of my Civics are rated for 87 octane but do not have the ability to retard the timing nor do they have knock sensors. Hotter weather and low rpm and even moderate loading and increased manifold pressure will produce pinging on 87 octane. Both require 89 in the summer and really get the best mpg with 91. I can get away with 87 during the winter.

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All I know is, that when I run 91 or higher, my Saab holds max boost for longer and smoother (15.5 psi). then when I run lower grade fuel. Also my MPG goes down. Mind you up here, the lower grade fuels have up to 15% ethanol and my saab does not like ethanol.
 
The 2.4l Accord engine is not capable of increasing timing to accomodate higher octane fuel. It can decrease timing to adjust to inferior fuels thereby preventing knock.

If it's not running correctly on 87 there may be a bulletin from Honda, check into it.
 
Lacking spark advance does not really mean the engine will not run "better" or "smoother" on "premium" fuel. That's part of the point of discussion.
 
Less retarded = more advanced.

Regarding spark ignition engines:

Pre-ignition = uncontrolled combustion beginning BEFORE the spark plug fires. This would be due to one or more of the following, insufficient octane for the pressure developed in the combustion chamber, overheating or hot spots in the combustion chamber.
Pre-ignition can and will destroy engine parts in short order especially if it occurs at WOT.

Detonation (AKA spark knock) this occurs AFTER the spark plug has fired, and is caused by the rising pressure and heat from normal combustion and its flame front setting off the remaining fuel mixture in the combustion chamber.
When this occurs there are two separate areas of combustion resulting in two colliding flame fronts in the combustion chamber. This tends to cause all of the mixture to go off at once... therefore detonation and the sounds that are produced from the event.

While not remotely as destructive as pre-ignition, detonation will have more or less of a "hammering" effect on engine parts which is not beneficial to longevity.

Ignition timing will usually not have any effect on pre-ignition once it sets in. Only backing off the throttle or cutting the engine altogether will save an engine that is in pre-ignition.
This is usually a condition that only occurs in a grossly mis tuned engine running a fuel with insufficent octane, or a badly overheated situation.

Detonation ( AKA spark knock) as bad as the title sounds,
is not as bad for an engine as Pre-ignition.
Interestingly uncontrolled, prolonged spark knock can lead to pre-ignition which can then do great damage. Brief spark knocking events (a few seconds) do no damage unless severe knocking is occurring.

Spark knock can be reduced or eliminated by retarding the ignition timing among other things. Retarding ignition timing generally reduces an engines efficiency. Most engines with knock sensors will use the maximum timing advance allowed by the fuel's octane before knock sets in up to the max allowed by the pre-programmed ECU map.
There is a max spec for the advance programmed into the engine's computer... if the engine's computer NEVER has to retard timing with 87 then higher octane will generally not be beneficial.
And the inverse is also generally true... if the knock sensor signals the engine's computer to retard timing some efficiency will be lost, especially at WOT.
Increased octane will help this condition and generally provide increased efficiency and performance.

If premium gives better performance in a knock sensor equipped car this usually means that some spark knock was being detected by the knock sensor.

Colliding flame fronts AFTER the spark thats what detonation (AKA spark knock) is about.

Pre-ignition is totally uncontrolled combustion beginning BEFORE the spark, this might as well be a small amount of dynamite going off in the engine. The results sometimes look like it.

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Rickey
 
We're talking RON + MON/2 here sprintman... you silly aussies
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Seriously though most other countries run on higher grades of gas than in the US. 87 really is watery
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Fuel flavored kool-aid.
 
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