New Amsoil 5w-30 (ASL) formula?

[medic]

3MP has started the next run with the Amsoil ASL and his VOA shows significantly lower Zinc & Phosphorus than we previously thought. This oil would meet API SL for phos. levels. What's up with that?

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html

 

[TooSlick]

The Amsoil 5w-30 and 10w-30 were reformulated about 16 months ago and this is approx the chemistry they are now using. I have seen a recent bump in P and Zn levels, and the most current batches show about 1100 ppm of P and 1300 ppm of Zn. The Series 2000, 0w-30 shows 1200 ppm of P and 1500 ppm of Zn. Note the level of Boron, which is higher than in the past, and the TBN of 12.5, using the new Blackstone test method.

Amsoil 5w-30: (3/7/03) data:

VI, 174
Noack, 5.1%
HT/HS, 3.5 Cp @ 150C
CCS @ -30C, 4990 Cp
PP, -60F
Four Ball Wear Test: 0.40 mm
TBN, 12.4

That data is directly from Amsoils own lab - you won't find it posted on the website ....


Tooslick

 

[TooSlick]

Here are my predictions for the Amsoil 5w-30 in the 3MP study:

1) Wear rates for Fe and Pb that are at least 25% lower than Mobil 1 ...

2) A reduction in oil consumption of at least 33%...

3) Better TBN retention than the Mobil 1, 5w-30, once you get out past 12,000 miles ...

4) Significantly less copper wear due to corrosion...

5) A bit more initial thinning than we saw with the Mobil 1, 5w-30, due to a higher # of VI improver

6) With seven qts of makeup oil, the Amsoil 5w-30 will easily last for a full year and be in pretty decent shape after 12 months...


As I've mentioned on a number of occasions, Amsoils best and most durable 5w-30 is their more expensive, Series 3000 product (HDD). However, even their second tier oils (5w-30/10w-30/10w-40), will do well in this motor ....

Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics

 

[buster]

quote:

---

As I've mentioned on a number of occasions, Amsoils best and most durable 5w-30 is their more expensive, Series 3000 product (HDD). However, even their second tier oils (5w-30/10w-30/10w-40), will do well in this motor ....

---

Tooslick , I bet your wrong.

Second, if you wanted to test Amsoils' S2k/3k product, I'd like to compare it to Mobil 1 R 0w-30 then. Apples to Apples, not a $8 oil compared to a $4.50 oil. Or Delvac 1 for that matter. ASL/ATM are on the same playing field as M1 so it's the only fair way to test this.

I think ASL will do a bit better, but not by much.


BTW, only 1.5qts of ACTUAL make up oil was used. The other was from sampling. This keeps getting thrown around but consumption was excellent for 18k miles, minus the sampling.

[ December 01, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Patman]

Buster is right, using only 1.5 qts of oil in 18k is simply awesome for an LS1 engine. Some guys I know burn a quart every 1000 miles or less! When I get my 97 Corvette, I sure hope I get one whose LS1 only uses as little oil as 3MPs.

 

[buster]

Molekule's last VOA of ATM showed lower amounts too.

This should be interesting. From a chemistry perspective, you would think M1 has the advantage. We are dealing with an LS1 though, which likes thicker oils so the edge might go to Amsoil. They have copied Mobil 1 and increased the Boron.

[ December 01, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[TooSlick]

The Series 3000, 5w-30 is Amsoils best engine oil right now, since it's also suitable for use in Marine inboards (extremely shear stable), water cooled, wet clutch motorcycles (not friction modified), and all types of diesel engines. That makes it a more capable product than their other lubes, including the S2000, 0w-30. You can basically run it in any type of gas/diesel engine, or engines that have been converted to run on natural gas ....

The other oil you can do this with is Delvac 1, 5w-40, which I mention all the time ....

TS

 

[Spector]

The Boron is significantly higher then in the past. A year or so ago it was less then 5 PPM in UOA and then early this year on my samples went to around 20 ppm or so. the 82 PPM seems much higher again. This is not the series 3000. I am running hte 10w but the additive packages I thought were similar in these two.

[ December 04, 2003, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Spector ]

 

[TooSlick]

Spector,

With the last reformulation change about 18 months ago, Amsoil has started using the same borate ester technology in the 5w-30/10w-30, that used to be reserved for the much more expensive Series 2000 oils. I have an analysis of the Series 2000 from a batch I bought in 1997 that shows about 50 ppm of boron after 16k miles of use in a VW Jetta. The Series 3000 is considered a HD diesel oil, so it's not friction modified with boron.

I've noticed that the level of boron does diminish with use, so you really have to do a VOA to see how much is in there.

I should point out that there are several types of zinc/phosphorus/moly compounds used in engine oils as antiwear additives. Even If you see similar levels of ZDDP, I would not assume it's the same chemistry ...

 

[medic]

Wow, I didn't expect this much discussion. I was just a bit confused because the ASL that I bought back in April showed higher amounts of zinc & phos in the UOA. I am still running the oil that I bought then and just topped of with 1/2 quart of some ASL that I bought about 2 weeks ago.

 

[buster]

I spoke with Jim V at Amsoil and he said the numbers are still at the levels they have been, which is what TS reported. These labs clearly are off sometimes. We see TBN's range from 10 to 14 sometimes.

 

[MolaKule]

The borates come in many forms as well.

For emulsified suspensions, you have the calcium borates and the potassium triborates.

The borate esters are the most common form of boron additive today, since they play well with other ester-based additives such as ZDDP and MoTDC.

Related Thread:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000027

For a comprehensive list of Mulitfunctional aditives:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000032

 

[TooSlick]

The old Amsoil 5w-30 was ACEA "A2/B2" rated, while the current formulation is ACEA "A3/B3/B4" rated. So the current formulation is much improved ....

The Amsoil 5w-30 is using a thicker basestock blend than before and less VI modifier - that's why the high temp properties are better and the VI is lower (174 vs 186) ....Noack has also dropped from 6.8% to 5.1%, which is significant, and also indicates less polymer in the formulation.

Ted

 

[buster]

Mobil must really be cheap bc it seems Amsoil uses better basestocks across the board. We know Delvac 1 has a very high quality basestock, but the Mobil 1 line until now, hasn't. In fact, M1 SS could be better if they used a higher quality basestock like D1. I guess it makes sense being that Mobil 1 is mass-marketed at the retail level. S2k Amsoil has been using a high quality single base stock for quite sometime. I wonder if Amsoil buys there base stocks from someone other then Mobil?

 

[Sin City]

The latest specs for Amsoil (ASL) 5W-30 are really awesome! In my humble opinion Amsoil must produce a better product than Mobil 1 or any other easily available (over the counter) synthetic oil or they will be out of business. If Mobil 1 synthetic oil was equal to Amsoil synthetic oil then it would be really tough to sell Amsoil for a higher price.

I didn't think it was possible to produce a synthetic passenger car motor oil with a NOACK of 5.1% and sell it for less than $6.00 per quart. A typical API SL "dino" 5W-30 motor oil will have a NOACK of about 12-15% and a typical 5W-30 synthetic motor oil will have a NOACK of anywhere from about 7-10%. In a typical mechanically sound engine the NOACK of the motor oil will be the main factor in determining oil consumption. In an typical older worn engine the viscosity will be more significant in determining oil consumption.

[ December 06, 2003, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: Sin City ]

 

[TooSlick]

Folks want to use the best oils on the market, but they want to buy them for $3.77/qt, on sale on Walmart - it simply doesn't work that way. As I have mentioned, I was paying $5.95/qt for Amsoil in 1978. A few years after that they were able to drop the price to $4.95/qt, since they were getting better prices on raw materials and buying in much larger volume. Today, they buy well over a million gallons of very high quality PAO basestock annually, and the retail price on their regular stuff ranges from $5.05 for the 15w-40 to $8.25 for the Series 2000/3000 oils.

Mobil can make better oils, with thicker basestocks and more robust additive chemistries (Delvac 1 and their syn. motorcycle oils). However, their main interest is maintaining their 60% market share, not satisfying the needs of a very small market niche. If the regular Mobil 1, 0w-30/5w-30/10w-30 were all improved and the cost went up to > $5.00/qt, they'd lose tons of business. I think that $5.00/qt is the magic # for synthetic oils sold off the shelf, that are not specifically recommended for extended drains. I sell Amsoil locally for the suggested retail price and it sells fine, but most folks know what they're getting and many are already using the stuff. I'm sure the same holds true for folks buying Redline, Synergyn, etc ....

Tooslick
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics

 

[buster]

I'm going to send a VOA off of ASL to see what amounts of ZDP are being used.