Neon Vs Focus vs Cavalier

[grampi]

VNTS

The amount of cars you see in a scrap yard is only an indication of how many of those car were sold. The amount of high mileage cars you still see on the road is an indication of reliability and longevity...and there are far more high mileage Japanese small segement vehicles still on the road than there are domestics...

 

[VNTS]

totally untrue

If you visit a junkyard, I go every few weeks, you will get a random sampling of what was built 8-15 yrs ago, and is now at the end of life. By your logic I should see very few Civics or Corrollas because they last for ever. Or they will be much older models cyling in because they last longer.

Now I know you have to take into consideration the numbers sold etc but if you go often enough you will get a feel for cars with issues that get retired sooner, vs more durable cars which will last longer and when they do show up in the yard are older and have more miles when "retired".

I would say that some of the domestic low cost cars actually are older and have more miles when scrapped. So based on my observation I would never say the Civic is more durable.

 

[SLCraig]

Originally Posted By: grampi
I would put any Corolla or Civic engine up against any domestic engine in that segment in terms of reliability and engine life....I'd like to see a [censored] or Neon motor go 300K without ever having the engine apart, still with the original water pump, altenator, etc...


Are you serious? A 2.0 SOHC can easily go 300K, it is a timing belt engine but they are rock solid. Mine saw redline shifts probably thousands of times in its life and it never so much complained once. It also burned very little oil. They are way more stout than you think, apparently.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: VNTS
totally untrue

If you visit a junkyard, I go every few weeks, you will get a random sampling of what was built 8-15 yrs ago, and is now at the end of life. By your logic I should see very few Civics or Corrollas because they last for ever. Or they will be much older models cyling in because they last longer.

Now I know you have to take into consideration the numbers sold etc but if you go often enough you will get a feel for cars with issues that get retired sooner, vs more durable cars which will last longer and when they do show up in the yard are older and have more miles when "retired".

I would say that some of the domestic low cost cars actually are older and have more miles when scrapped. So based on my observation I would never say the Civic is more durable.



You use your junkyard method...I prefer using relaibilty data that's readily available on the internet and it says your method is not accurate...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: SLCraig
Originally Posted By: grampi
I would put any Corolla or Civic engine up against any domestic engine in that segment in terms of reliability and engine life....I'd like to see a [censored] or Neon motor go 300K without ever having the engine apart, still with the original water pump, altenator, etc...


Are you serious? A 2.0 SOHC can easily go 300K, it is a timing belt engine but they are rock solid. Mine saw redline shifts probably thousands of times in its life and it never so much complained once. It also burned very little oil. They are way more stout than you think, apparently.


They may run that long, but they will require more repairs than a Toyota 1.8L...

 

[SLCraig]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: SLCraig
Originally Posted By: grampi
I would put any Corolla or Civic engine up against any domestic engine in that segment in terms of reliability and engine life....I'd like to see a [censored] or Neon motor go 300K without ever having the engine apart, still with the original water pump, altenator, etc...


Are you serious? A 2.0 SOHC can easily go 300K, it is a timing belt engine but they are rock solid. Mine saw redline shifts probably thousands of times in its life and it never so much complained once. It also burned very little oil. They are way more stout than you think, apparently.


They may run that long, but they will require more repairs than a Toyota 1.8L...


The engine itself, I doubt it.
The car? perhaps. Chryslers love to fail power door lock actuators and other random things like that. But that 2.0 SOHC is a wicked good little engine.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: SLCraig
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: SLCraig
Originally Posted By: grampi
I would put any Corolla or Civic engine up against any domestic engine in that segment in terms of reliability and engine life....I'd like to see a [censored] or Neon motor go 300K without ever having the engine apart, still with the original water pump, altenator, etc...


Are you serious? A 2.0 SOHC can easily go 300K, it is a timing belt engine but they are rock solid. Mine saw redline shifts probably thousands of times in its life and it never so much complained once. It also burned very little oil. They are way more stout than you think, apparently.


They may run that long, but they will require more repairs than a Toyota 1.8L...


The engine itself, I doubt it.
The car? perhaps. Chryslers love to fail power door lock actuators and other random things like that. But that 2.0 SOHC is a wicked good little engine.


I doubt things like water pumps and other engine externals will go that long without requiring replacement, and that can run into some big bucks...

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
None of the oil consumption noted in this thread is severe at all. Most OEMs (Ford, Chevy, Honda, Toyota, Chrysler, etc) only recognize an oil consumption problem when the rate is 1 qt/1,000 miles.


That's crazy - my wife's Escape with the 3.0 and 118k maybe swallows a quart of 5w20 in 5000 miles. My Taurus swallows 0 in 7500 miles at 42k.

With OEM's pushing oil changes out to 7500-10000 miles that means they accept putting 10 quarts of oil into the engine before an oil change. Really? Why bother changing it at that point - you've already "changed" it twice.

 

[SLCraig]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
None of the oil consumption noted in this thread is severe at all. Most OEMs (Ford, Chevy, Honda, Toyota, Chrysler, etc) only recognize an oil consumption problem when the rate is 1 qt/1,000 miles.


That's crazy - my wife's Escape with the 3.0 and 118k maybe swallows a quart of 5w20 in 5000 miles. My Taurus swallows 0 in 7500 miles.

With OEM's pushing oil changes out to 7500-10000 miles that means they accept putting 10 quarts of oil into the engine before an oil change. Really? Why bother changing it at that point - you've already "changed" it twice.


Yeah your vehicles are fairly normal, but for some other vehicles its also normal. Early VQ35's had bad piston rings causing bad oil consumption. My 2002 Maxima was one of them. When I first got the car I was adding a quart every couple weeks. Engine ran amazingly well and had great power, but it burned probably a quart every 1000KM (600 miles) Some were even worse (this is over time of course, not when new) But if you kept up with the oil adding, the engine would keep running well and last a long time. My Saturns were the same way. Oil consumption, but otherwise healthy engines that got good MPG.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: grampi
OVERK1LL

I agree, all makes and models have their problems, but in the small car segment, the Japanese makes have fewer than the domestics. I also agree that more people fix their Japanese models because they are worth fixing, mainly because they have fewer problems to begin with...


That was true in 1989. Maybe. But not now.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
None of the oil consumption noted in this thread is severe at all. Most OEMs (Ford, Chevy, Honda, Toyota, Chrysler, etc) only recognize an oil consumption problem when the rate is 1 qt/1,000 miles.


That's crazy

Well, that's what you get when lawyers are given the task of proof reading owner's manuals. They probably removed one of the zeros that the engineers originally wrote there.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: SLCraig

The engine itself, I doubt it.
The car? perhaps. Chryslers love to fail power door lock actuators and other random things like that. But that 2.0 SOHC is a wicked good little engine.


I doubt things like water pumps and other engine externals will go that long without requiring replacement, and that can run into some big bucks...


"Externals" most certainly do NOT run into "big bucks" on a Chrysler EDx series engine, unless its in a PT Cruiser where getting at the accessory adds a couple of shop hours. That's one of its appeals. Granted, you're right that not many people would keep a Neon (or to be fair, a Civic, Corolla, Sentra, Focus, or any other cheap generic compact) 300k miles. But that engine could sure do it as or more affordably than most imports.

 

[hooligan24]

buy the one that will give you the lowest insurance premiums. I also look into tire sizes since some cost a lot more than others. example: stock srt4 tire is 205/50/17 and cost alot more than a more popular size. I hate having to spend a good chunk of change every couple years on tires, then it hurts even more when I have to pay more for the oddball size.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: hooligan24
buy the one that will give you the lowest insurance premiums. I also look into tire sizes since some cost a lot more than others. example: stock srt4 tire is 205/50/17 and cost alot more than a more popular size. I hate having to spend a good chunk of change every couple years on tires, then it hurts even more when I have to pay more for the oddball size.


Fortunately, 205/50R17 is not such an oddball size any longer.

It was when I had to buy my first set...."you can have the Riken Raptors, you can have the Linglong Super Happy Funtime Hi-Way tire, or you can spend over $200 each on Eagle RS/As again. that's all we got in this region."

We have lots of choices now. Mazda3Ses use that size too.

But an SRT/4 is not going to be in the Cavalier/Focus/Neon price group any more than a Mazdaspeed Protege' or a Focus SVT would be. You could probably get a decent 3.4 RamAir Grand Am for less than an SRT/4

I found that the Mazda3 is on average about $2000 more than a Cavalier or Neon. The Mazda is still about $1000 cheaper than a Civic though.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: SLCraig

The engine itself, I doubt it.
The car? perhaps. Chryslers love to fail power door lock actuators and other random things like that. But that 2.0 SOHC is a wicked good little engine.


I doubt things like water pumps and other engine externals will go that long without requiring replacement, and that can run into some big bucks...


"Externals" most certainly do NOT run into "big bucks" on a Chrysler EDx series engine, unless its in a PT Cruiser where getting at the accessory adds a couple of shop hours. That's one of its appeals. Granted, you're right that not many people would keep a Neon (or to be fair, a Civic, Corolla, Sentra, Focus, or any other cheap generic compact) 300k miles. But that engine could sure do it as or more affordably than most imports.


There's are reasons people don't keep them that long...one of them is because the cars are junk and falling apart by then...that's not the case with Japanese compacts...and I'd like to see data that supports the notion that the current compacts are on par with the Japanese in terms of build quality and longevity...I have seen no such data...

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
That is the attitude of the typical "Toyotas are perfect" drone...the car is an oil guzzler, but thats fine, because Toyota says it's "normal". Unbelieveable.


Ask any mechanic and he will tell you it's completely normal for ANY engine to use a qt of oil between oil changes...an oil guzzler is an engine that burns so much oil it smokes when going down the road and/or fouls out spark plugs...and I would put any Corolla or Civic engine up against any domestic engine in that segment in terms of reliability and engine life....I'd like to see a [censored] or Neon motor go 300K without ever having the engine apart, still with the original water pump, altenator, etc...


No, he won't...well, unless he just rebuilt the engine and doesn't want to admit he screwed the pooch! With over 185,000 miles, my Jeep (4.0 HO) uses NO oil. (Less than half a PINT in 5000 miles!) In 80,000+ miles, I had to add oil to my Magnum (Hemi) once...it used about a quart and a half in the first 5000 miles, nothing at all after that. Liz's Festiva (carb'd 1.3) used less than a quart between changes (4K, usually) with 270,000 miles. My truck (Cummins 5.9) uses less than a quart in 5000 miles.

If a Civic has the original WP at 300,000 miles, the owner or mechanic is an idiot: that's a changeout item when doing the timing belt! (Same is true for a Neon, actually, though at 100K.)

I understand you feel the need to rabidly defend your oil guzzler...but Toyota or not, it's still an oil guzzler!

 

[daves87rs]

Getting back back on subject here...

Any of the 3 will be fine. Look for a sedan, and something in a color an older person might drive.(tan, sliver, white). Maybe even something more base model like....

From me having 2 j bodies currently, you would know where my vote would go. But I'd keep an eye on all three, and see what you can find...

 

[ms21043]

Buy a good low mileage 2nd gen Neon. Dirt cheap, very reliable and good on gas. If it has a MTX, all the better. As with ANY car, follow the owners manual service recommendations and you'll get good use out of it.

I am a little biased towards the Neon since that's what I've been driving to work every day for the last 8 years and 213k miles. It gets oil changes every 10k miles using what ever synthetic is on sale, only because I'd rather change it than add the 1/2 quart of oil it uses between oil changes. It has the stock 150 horsepower engine with the gears-matched-to-the-power band MTX. I stirred in a little suspension help from Hotchkis, Koni and Prothane, added lightweight 16x7 wheels and always use high quality summer tires. Combined this with the already excellent 4 wheel abs disc brakes and I'm never late to work. The car is a blast to drive, I'd rather drive it than any other, well that is unless you gave me a Porsche or something..

Besides the stuff I added -because doing the same commute for the past 20 years gets boring, It's had no problems at all, nothing. Pretty good for a so called piece of junk Chrysler I think.

Oh yeah, what do I do for a living? I'm a mechanic so working on a car on my day off is one of the last things I want to do.

 

[Challenger71]

Chrysler early 90s junk huh...I got your junk. 96 Neon just shy of 200k and very little repairs. All else has been modification work on internals initiated by me not the car. I had once witnessed a warped head on a 1st Gen Neon SOHC that once the timing belt, rockers, valve springs taken off, the cam would not manually rotate a full 360 degrees while still in the head. The head was so warped the cam would catch the head about every 180 degree rotation when done by hand. The car overheated and the owner had brought the car in weeks later to get a new headgasket. That Neon did not display any symptoms or issues prior to finding this out. New waterpump, timing belt and head and the car ran like a new vehicle.

The only main issue the 1st Gen Neons ever had was poor choice of head-gaskets by DC beancounters and this due to the car having to match a certain sector of buyers and price points. They went to far in that effort and it bit them.

There are a few talking heads on this thread and you are all talk without much valid substance in the absence of logic.

 

[CROWNVIC4LIFE]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
That is the attitude of the typical "Toyotas are perfect" drone...the car is an oil guzzler, but thats fine, because Toyota says it's "normal". Unbelieveable.


I have to agree with this..My neighbor told me that this morning as he was adding 2 quarts of oil in his 2001 Corolla..I have yet to own a car that I had to add oil between service..Even on my 200-300K mile cars.