ok i must have confused it with something else.
Neon Vs Focus vs Cavalier
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Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Yeah right.
Certain generations of Corolla's loved to use oil. My buddy had a Corolla "S" that drank 1L every 5K (Km). VERY common issue.
The seventh generation Civic's love to eat front end parts. They were also known for lunching transmissions (though nowhere near as common as the Accord or Odyssey).
Simply being a product of one of the Nippon juggernauts does not make these products immune to failure and defect. They DO however hold their value better than the domestic marques (as do German cars, which, I think we can all agree, can have FAR more costly repairs if you deal with the stealership than either domestic or Asian nameplates) which makes them more "worth it" for people to sink money into. There's a reason I was able to purchase my wife's old Focus for $500.00 and this is it. Even though the repairs the car needed at 160,000 miles were very minor (the "big problem" was a massive vacuum leak fixed for like 50 cents) the owner thought the car was junk. It ended up being great, reliable transportation for my wife for very little money, even though the car had been obviously neglected.
Reliability/maintenance data based on hunderds of thousands of vehicles doesn't lie...and it also doesn't support your claims, if you're claiming the issues you mentioned are widespread...based on that data Corollas and Civics require far fewer repairs and stay on the road for many more miles than any of the domestics in their segment...and for your information, an engine using 1 liter of oil every 5K miles is considered normal...my Corolla has been using 1 qt every 1000-1100 miles for the last 100K miles, but it doesn't foul plugs and it still gets 38 MPG...I'd say that's more than acceptable...
Yeah right.
Certain generations of Corolla's loved to use oil. My buddy had a Corolla "S" that drank 1L every 5K (Km). VERY common issue.
The seventh generation Civic's love to eat front end parts. They were also known for lunching transmissions (though nowhere near as common as the Accord or Odyssey).
Simply being a product of one of the Nippon juggernauts does not make these products immune to failure and defect. They DO however hold their value better than the domestic marques (as do German cars, which, I think we can all agree, can have FAR more costly repairs if you deal with the stealership than either domestic or Asian nameplates) which makes them more "worth it" for people to sink money into. There's a reason I was able to purchase my wife's old Focus for $500.00 and this is it. Even though the repairs the car needed at 160,000 miles were very minor (the "big problem" was a massive vacuum leak fixed for like 50 cents) the owner thought the car was junk. It ended up being great, reliable transportation for my wife for very little money, even though the car had been obviously neglected.
Reliability/maintenance data based on hunderds of thousands of vehicles doesn't lie...and it also doesn't support your claims, if you're claiming the issues you mentioned are widespread...based on that data Corollas and Civics require far fewer repairs and stay on the road for many more miles than any of the domestics in their segment...and for your information, an engine using 1 liter of oil every 5K miles is considered normal...my Corolla has been using 1 qt every 1000-1100 miles for the last 100K miles, but it doesn't foul plugs and it still gets 38 MPG...I'd say that's more than acceptable...
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Originally Posted By: Nick R
This is all in the future anyway, probably late next spring/early summer when I have the funds to pay off what I owe on the car, and sell it outright to a 3rd part or something. Looking to get a cheap, used car. I've basically narrowed it down to primarily looking at those 3. . . .
The divergence of opinion on these three is amazing.
I've not owned any directly. But I have second-hand info on two of them, perhaps a little older than the ones you are considering.
An in-law had a Z24 she bought new with the mtx. It was loads of fun, but seemed to have a lot of problems. Mechanical, electrical, body integrity issues. The engine was rock solid though. She did keep it for almost 10 years. Moved on to a Civic and is now forever with the "cult", even though the Civic is as exciting to drive as a washing machine.
A close dealer mechanic friend of mine bought a Gen 1 Neon brand new with atx. Some early mechanical problems (the head gasket was the biggest), but he fixed them all himself and does all maintenance. Changes the atx fluid every 25k. I think it is up past 275k now and still runs great as his everyday driver, on the original atx. He works on a lot of Gen 2 Neons and thinks they are a little better than his. He hates what D-C eventually replaced them with. "Very flimsy" are his words about the later stuff.
Don't know about the Focus.
My sense is that with these three, after this much time, the one you find with the best upkeep and in the best condition would be my pick.
Hope that helps a little more.
This is all in the future anyway, probably late next spring/early summer when I have the funds to pay off what I owe on the car, and sell it outright to a 3rd part or something. Looking to get a cheap, used car. I've basically narrowed it down to primarily looking at those 3. . . .
The divergence of opinion on these three is amazing.
I've not owned any directly. But I have second-hand info on two of them, perhaps a little older than the ones you are considering.
An in-law had a Z24 she bought new with the mtx. It was loads of fun, but seemed to have a lot of problems. Mechanical, electrical, body integrity issues. The engine was rock solid though. She did keep it for almost 10 years. Moved on to a Civic and is now forever with the "cult", even though the Civic is as exciting to drive as a washing machine.
A close dealer mechanic friend of mine bought a Gen 1 Neon brand new with atx. Some early mechanical problems (the head gasket was the biggest), but he fixed them all himself and does all maintenance. Changes the atx fluid every 25k. I think it is up past 275k now and still runs great as his everyday driver, on the original atx. He works on a lot of Gen 2 Neons and thinks they are a little better than his. He hates what D-C eventually replaced them with. "Very flimsy" are his words about the later stuff.
Don't know about the Focus.
My sense is that with these three, after this much time, the one you find with the best upkeep and in the best condition would be my pick.
Hope that helps a little more.
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Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Yeah right.
Certain generations of Corolla's loved to use oil. My buddy had a Corolla "S" that drank 1L every 5K (Km). VERY common issue.
The seventh generation Civic's love to eat front end parts. They were also known for lunching transmissions (though nowhere near as common as the Accord or Odyssey).
Simply being a product of one of the Nippon juggernauts does not make these products immune to failure and defect. They DO however hold their value better than the domestic marques (as do German cars, which, I think we can all agree, can have FAR more costly repairs if you deal with the stealership than either domestic or Asian nameplates) which makes them more "worth it" for people to sink money into. There's a reason I was able to purchase my wife's old Focus for $500.00 and this is it. Even though the repairs the car needed at 160,000 miles were very minor (the "big problem" was a massive vacuum leak fixed for like 50 cents) the owner thought the car was junk. It ended up being great, reliable transportation for my wife for very little money, even though the car had been obviously neglected.
Reliability/maintenance data based on hunderds of thousands of vehicles doesn't lie...and it also doesn't support your claims, if you're claiming the issues you mentioned are widespread...based on that data Corollas and Civics require far fewer repairs and stay on the road for many more miles than any of the domestics in their segment...and for your information, an engine using 1 liter of oil every 5K miles is considered normal...my Corolla has been using 1 qt every 1000-1100 miles for the last 100K miles, but it doesn't foul plugs and it still gets 38 MPG...I'd say that's more than acceptable...
I wouldn't say that's acceptable at all! Sounds like time for a rebuild.
BTW, my point wasn't that the vehicles were unreliable, simply that they require regular maintenance and repairs just like their domestic siblings but due to their higher "perceived value" they will be fixed rather than scrapped. While somebody might wrecker a Focus that needs a new rear spring, they'd have no problem tossing a transmission in a Civic because it is "worth more".
Reliability/maintenance is based on the mindset of those doing the surveys. If people feel the Civic is the best thing to grace the earth since [censored], the data is going to support that. I've known enough people with the generation I mentioned to KNOW that they require front end parts, especially with our roads. They are not immune to fail. The Corolla oil consumption issue is also well known and there are thousands upon thousands of posts and threads on it with people just "dealing with it" because they like the car otherwise.
No different than the snapping cams, rusting-out frames, epic transmission failures (see: Odyssey)....etc, no manufacturer is perfect and defects/problem points happen. It is the (perceived) value of the vehicle that determines whether it is worth fixing and maintaining after a certain point and things slant heavily in favour of the Japanese marques here.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Yeah right.
Certain generations of Corolla's loved to use oil. My buddy had a Corolla "S" that drank 1L every 5K (Km). VERY common issue.
The seventh generation Civic's love to eat front end parts. They were also known for lunching transmissions (though nowhere near as common as the Accord or Odyssey).
Simply being a product of one of the Nippon juggernauts does not make these products immune to failure and defect. They DO however hold their value better than the domestic marques (as do German cars, which, I think we can all agree, can have FAR more costly repairs if you deal with the stealership than either domestic or Asian nameplates) which makes them more "worth it" for people to sink money into. There's a reason I was able to purchase my wife's old Focus for $500.00 and this is it. Even though the repairs the car needed at 160,000 miles were very minor (the "big problem" was a massive vacuum leak fixed for like 50 cents) the owner thought the car was junk. It ended up being great, reliable transportation for my wife for very little money, even though the car had been obviously neglected.
Reliability/maintenance data based on hunderds of thousands of vehicles doesn't lie...and it also doesn't support your claims, if you're claiming the issues you mentioned are widespread...based on that data Corollas and Civics require far fewer repairs and stay on the road for many more miles than any of the domestics in their segment...and for your information, an engine using 1 liter of oil every 5K miles is considered normal...my Corolla has been using 1 qt every 1000-1100 miles for the last 100K miles, but it doesn't foul plugs and it still gets 38 MPG...I'd say that's more than acceptable...
I wouldn't say that's acceptable at all! Sounds like time for a rebuild.
BTW, my point wasn't that the vehicles were unreliable, simply that they require regular maintenance and repairs just like their domestic siblings but due to their higher "perceived value" they will be fixed rather than scrapped. While somebody might wrecker a Focus that needs a new rear spring, they'd have no problem tossing a transmission in a Civic because it is "worth more".
Reliability/maintenance is based on the mindset of those doing the surveys. If people feel the Civic is the best thing to grace the earth since [censored], the data is going to support that. I've known enough people with the generation I mentioned to KNOW that they require front end parts, especially with our roads. They are not immune to fail. The Corolla oil consumption issue is also well known and there are thousands upon thousands of posts and threads on it with people just "dealing with it" because they like the car otherwise.
No different than the snapping cams, rusting-out frames, epic transmission failures (see: Odyssey)....etc, no manufacturer is perfect and defects/problem points happen. It is the (perceived) value of the vehicle that determines whether it is worth fixing and maintaining after a certain point and things slant heavily in favour of the Japanese marques here.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
That is the attitude of the typical "Toyotas are perfect" drone...the car is an oil guzzler, but thats fine, because Toyota says it's "normal". Unbelieveable.
Ask any mechanic and he will tell you it's completely normal for ANY engine to use a qt of oil between oil changes...an oil guzzler is an engine that burns so much oil it smokes when going down the road and/or fouls out spark plugs...and I would put any Corolla or Civic engine up against any domestic engine in that segment in terms of reliability and engine life....I'd like to see a [censored] or Neon motor go 300K without ever having the engine apart, still with the original water pump, altenator, etc...
That is the attitude of the typical "Toyotas are perfect" drone...the car is an oil guzzler, but thats fine, because Toyota says it's "normal". Unbelieveable.
Ask any mechanic and he will tell you it's completely normal for ANY engine to use a qt of oil between oil changes...an oil guzzler is an engine that burns so much oil it smokes when going down the road and/or fouls out spark plugs...and I would put any Corolla or Civic engine up against any domestic engine in that segment in terms of reliability and engine life....I'd like to see a [censored] or Neon motor go 300K without ever having the engine apart, still with the original water pump, altenator, etc...
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I wouldn't say that's acceptable at all! Sounds like time for a rebuild.
BTW, my point wasn't that the vehicles were unreliable, simply that they require regular maintenance and repairs just like their domestic siblings but due to their higher "perceived value" they will be fixed rather than scrapped. While somebody might wrecker a Focus that needs a new rear spring, they'd have no problem tossing a transmission in a Civic because it is "worth more".
Reliability/maintenance is based on the mindset of those doing the surveys. If people feel the Civic is the best thing to grace the earth since [censored], the data is going to support that. I've known enough people with the generation I mentioned to KNOW that they require front end parts, especially with our roads. They are not immune to fail. The Corolla oil consumption issue is also well known and there are thousands upon thousands of posts and threads on it with people just "dealing with it" because they like the car otherwise.
No different than the snapping cams, rusting-out frames, epic transmission failures (see: Odyssey)....etc, no manufacturer is perfect and defects/problem points happen. It is the (perceived) value of the vehicle that determines whether it is worth fixing and maintaining after a certain point and things slant heavily in favour of the Japanese marques here.
So what's your threshold for deciding it's time for an engine to be rebuilt? If it uses ANY oil between changes? To me, if an engine still makes good power, doesn't get considerably less MPG, and doesn't require frequent spark plug changes, it's oil usage is acceptable. My Corolla still feels as powerful as it ever did, it still gets 38 MPG on the highway as it always has, and my current set of spark plugs have 85K on them and the engine still runs as smooth as it it ever did. That to me doesn't sound like an engine that needs to be rebuilt.
As far as your other statements, I suppose every discussion about reliability comes down to saying all cars of all makes have their problems...and say what you will about reliability data, but it all indicates that in this segement the Japanese makes rule in terms of reliability and longevity...if you choose not to believe the data that's your problem...
I wouldn't say that's acceptable at all! Sounds like time for a rebuild.
BTW, my point wasn't that the vehicles were unreliable, simply that they require regular maintenance and repairs just like their domestic siblings but due to their higher "perceived value" they will be fixed rather than scrapped. While somebody might wrecker a Focus that needs a new rear spring, they'd have no problem tossing a transmission in a Civic because it is "worth more".
Reliability/maintenance is based on the mindset of those doing the surveys. If people feel the Civic is the best thing to grace the earth since [censored], the data is going to support that. I've known enough people with the generation I mentioned to KNOW that they require front end parts, especially with our roads. They are not immune to fail. The Corolla oil consumption issue is also well known and there are thousands upon thousands of posts and threads on it with people just "dealing with it" because they like the car otherwise.
No different than the snapping cams, rusting-out frames, epic transmission failures (see: Odyssey)....etc, no manufacturer is perfect and defects/problem points happen. It is the (perceived) value of the vehicle that determines whether it is worth fixing and maintaining after a certain point and things slant heavily in favour of the Japanese marques here.
So what's your threshold for deciding it's time for an engine to be rebuilt? If it uses ANY oil between changes? To me, if an engine still makes good power, doesn't get considerably less MPG, and doesn't require frequent spark plug changes, it's oil usage is acceptable. My Corolla still feels as powerful as it ever did, it still gets 38 MPG on the highway as it always has, and my current set of spark plugs have 85K on them and the engine still runs as smooth as it it ever did. That to me doesn't sound like an engine that needs to be rebuilt.
As far as your other statements, I suppose every discussion about reliability comes down to saying all cars of all makes have their problems...and say what you will about reliability data, but it all indicates that in this segement the Japanese makes rule in terms of reliability and longevity...if you choose not to believe the data that's your problem...
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Originally Posted By: supton
I'd think high oil consumption would eventually get the cat. But a couple of cat replacements is likely cheaper than rebuild. Actually, I wonder how many of these motors can take a rebore.
If/when my Corolla gets so bad it actually needs a rebuild, I would just replace the car...if this thing died tomorrow I will have gotten my money's worth...
I'd think high oil consumption would eventually get the cat. But a couple of cat replacements is likely cheaper than rebuild. Actually, I wonder how many of these motors can take a rebore.
If/when my Corolla gets so bad it actually needs a rebuild, I would just replace the car...if this thing died tomorrow I will have gotten my money's worth...
Originally Posted By: grampi
Ask any mechanic and he will tell you it's completely normal for ANY engine to use a qt of oil between oil changes...
But you yourself said yours uses a quart every 1000 to 1100 miles... That's not one quart between oil changes. That's unacceptable to most people.
I drive a lot - in your car I'd need a couple quarts every week.
Ask any mechanic and he will tell you it's completely normal for ANY engine to use a qt of oil between oil changes...
But you yourself said yours uses a quart every 1000 to 1100 miles... That's not one quart between oil changes. That's unacceptable to most people.
I drive a lot - in your car I'd need a couple quarts every week.
Originally Posted By: grampi
...and say what you will about reliability data, but it all indicates that in this segement the Japanese makes rule in terms of reliability and longevity...if you choose not to believe the data that's your problem...
You keep mentioning this reliability/maintenance data, where is it? There is no such data available to general public, as each manufacturer closely guards their warranty repair data.
If you're talking about the reliability survey data, then there is no real hard data there. It's only a survey that doesn't dig deep into the "problems" reported and can easily be scewed.
...and say what you will about reliability data, but it all indicates that in this segement the Japanese makes rule in terms of reliability and longevity...if you choose not to believe the data that's your problem...
You keep mentioning this reliability/maintenance data, where is it? There is no such data available to general public, as each manufacturer closely guards their warranty repair data.
If you're talking about the reliability survey data, then there is no real hard data there. It's only a survey that doesn't dig deep into the "problems" reported and can easily be scewed.
None of the oil consumption noted in this thread is severe at all. Most OEMs (Ford, Chevy, Honda, Toyota, Chrysler, etc) only recognize an oil consumption problem when the rate is 1 qt/1,000 miles. Consuming a liter of oil every 5,000 kilometers is WELL on the good side of what any OEM would repair under warranty.
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Originally Posted By: grampi
So what's your threshold for deciding it's time for an engine to be rebuilt? If it uses ANY oil between changes? To me, if an engine still makes good power, doesn't get considerably less MPG, and doesn't require frequent spark plug changes, it's oil usage is acceptable. My Corolla still feels as powerful as it ever did, it still gets 38 MPG on the highway as it always has, and my current set of spark plugs have 85K on them and the engine still runs as smooth as it it ever did. That to me doesn't sound like an engine that needs to be rebuilt.
My condemnation point is around the 1L/5K (Kilometer, not miles) mark, so 1L in 3100 miles. I consider that excessive.
My old 302, with 348,000Km on it (216,000 miles) uses no oil between changes at 10-12K intervals (6,200-7500 miles).
Originally Posted By: grampi
As far as your other statements, I suppose every discussion about reliability comes down to saying all cars of all makes have their problems...and say what you will about reliability data, but it all indicates that in this segement the Japanese makes rule in terms of reliability and longevity...if you choose not to believe the data that's your problem...
You are arguing otherwise? I mean stating that all of them don't have their share of problems would certain be a fool's errand.....
And you seem to keep missing what I'm saying here. It is the perceived value of the vehicles, which is based on the marque that keeps many of these cars on the road. I'm not saying that the Japanese cars in the small car segment don't shine on the reliability surveys, they do. But this is part and parcel with the perceived value of the cars, THEY ARE WORTH FIXING in the eyes of many owners and perspective buyers.
But to take that one step further, simply because a vehicle shines on a reliability survey doesn't mean it has never required repairs. It just required FEWER repairs than the cars it is being compared to. The Corolla package is reliable and durable, albeit a bit boring. And if one can get past the oil consumption (which most will never fix, so this never goes down under reliability OR maintenance
) they will last a very long time, like yours has. I would argue the Civic platform (specifically the generation I mentioned) requires more repairs to get there than the Corolla. But the Civic is sportier and has less of an appliance feel to it.
The bottom line is that a car is worth what the market is willing to pay for it. Due to the "Ricer Revolution" the Civic garnered an incredible following almost overnight, making even far less than pristine examples (rotted out, burning oil) sell for significantly more than what they were previously worth. These cars can now be seen covered in body kits and driving around with a blue cloud following them, exiting from their 10" exhaust. When a car has a cult-like following such as this, do you not think it would skew the data relative to its reliability/reputation?
I think the Corolla is a better car than the Civic. But I think the Civic is a better driving car than the Corolla, at least in the generations we are discussing. I think the Corolla's reputation really does come from the fact that in general, it is lower maintenance than its peers (oil consumption excepted), whilst the Civic's added value comes from its following. The "Civic Nation" advertising focused on this.
So what's your threshold for deciding it's time for an engine to be rebuilt? If it uses ANY oil between changes? To me, if an engine still makes good power, doesn't get considerably less MPG, and doesn't require frequent spark plug changes, it's oil usage is acceptable. My Corolla still feels as powerful as it ever did, it still gets 38 MPG on the highway as it always has, and my current set of spark plugs have 85K on them and the engine still runs as smooth as it it ever did. That to me doesn't sound like an engine that needs to be rebuilt.
My condemnation point is around the 1L/5K (Kilometer, not miles) mark, so 1L in 3100 miles. I consider that excessive.
My old 302, with 348,000Km on it (216,000 miles) uses no oil between changes at 10-12K intervals (6,200-7500 miles).
Originally Posted By: grampi
As far as your other statements, I suppose every discussion about reliability comes down to saying all cars of all makes have their problems...and say what you will about reliability data, but it all indicates that in this segement the Japanese makes rule in terms of reliability and longevity...if you choose not to believe the data that's your problem...
You are arguing otherwise? I mean stating that all of them don't have their share of problems would certain be a fool's errand.....
And you seem to keep missing what I'm saying here. It is the perceived value of the vehicles, which is based on the marque that keeps many of these cars on the road. I'm not saying that the Japanese cars in the small car segment don't shine on the reliability surveys, they do. But this is part and parcel with the perceived value of the cars, THEY ARE WORTH FIXING in the eyes of many owners and perspective buyers.
But to take that one step further, simply because a vehicle shines on a reliability survey doesn't mean it has never required repairs. It just required FEWER repairs than the cars it is being compared to. The Corolla package is reliable and durable, albeit a bit boring. And if one can get past the oil consumption (which most will never fix, so this never goes down under reliability OR maintenance
The bottom line is that a car is worth what the market is willing to pay for it. Due to the "Ricer Revolution" the Civic garnered an incredible following almost overnight, making even far less than pristine examples (rotted out, burning oil) sell for significantly more than what they were previously worth. These cars can now be seen covered in body kits and driving around with a blue cloud following them, exiting from their 10" exhaust. When a car has a cult-like following such as this, do you not think it would skew the data relative to its reliability/reputation?
I think the Corolla is a better car than the Civic. But I think the Civic is a better driving car than the Corolla, at least in the generations we are discussing. I think the Corolla's reputation really does come from the fact that in general, it is lower maintenance than its peers (oil consumption excepted), whilst the Civic's added value comes from its following. The "Civic Nation" advertising focused on this.
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Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
None of the oil consumption noted in this thread is severe at all. Most OEMs (Ford, Chevy, Honda, Toyota, Chrysler, etc) only recognize an oil consumption problem when the rate is 1 qt/1,000 miles. Consuming a liter of oil every 5,000 kilometers is WELL on the good side of what any OEM would repair under warranty.
What the OEM considers the condemnation point for warranty and what is acceptable for the end user are two very different things. When an engine is consuming that much oil, it is going somewhere it shouldn't be.
None of the oil consumption noted in this thread is severe at all. Most OEMs (Ford, Chevy, Honda, Toyota, Chrysler, etc) only recognize an oil consumption problem when the rate is 1 qt/1,000 miles. Consuming a liter of oil every 5,000 kilometers is WELL on the good side of what any OEM would repair under warranty.
What the OEM considers the condemnation point for warranty and what is acceptable for the end user are two very different things. When an engine is consuming that much oil, it is going somewhere it shouldn't be.
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: grampi
Ask any mechanic and he will tell you it's completely normal for ANY engine to use a qt of oil between oil changes...
But you yourself said yours uses a quart every 1000 to 1100 miles... That's not one quart between oil changes. That's unacceptable to most people.
I drive a lot - in your car I'd need a couple quarts every week.
The origianl poster said Corollas are known for using 1 liter every 5K miles...that is absolutely acceptable and it's not uncommon for any engine to use that much between changes...whether or not you feel an engine using a qt every 1000 miles is acceptable is a judement call...as I stated, if my engine had a noticeable decrease in power or fuel economy, or was fouling plugs all the time, I'd say the amount of oil useage was unacceptable...that's not the case...the amount of money it would cost to rebuild the engine or replace the car would buy A LOT of oil...
Originally Posted By: grampi
Ask any mechanic and he will tell you it's completely normal for ANY engine to use a qt of oil between oil changes...
But you yourself said yours uses a quart every 1000 to 1100 miles... That's not one quart between oil changes. That's unacceptable to most people.
I drive a lot - in your car I'd need a couple quarts every week.
The origianl poster said Corollas are known for using 1 liter every 5K miles...that is absolutely acceptable and it's not uncommon for any engine to use that much between changes...whether or not you feel an engine using a qt every 1000 miles is acceptable is a judement call...as I stated, if my engine had a noticeable decrease in power or fuel economy, or was fouling plugs all the time, I'd say the amount of oil useage was unacceptable...that's not the case...the amount of money it would cost to rebuild the engine or replace the car would buy A LOT of oil...
Neons get an overly bad rap. They're not expensively built- they ARE cheap cars, but they can be very, very good and a lot of fun (if you get a stick version).
The one *I* would avoid like the black plague is the Cadaverlier. But that's just me.
Ford Foci are pretty good little cars. It might have the edge, just based on averages. But you can get a great Cadaverlier or a terrible Focus too. Individual condition matters the most.
The one *I* would avoid like the black plague is the Cadaverlier. But that's just me.
Ford Foci are pretty good little cars. It might have the edge, just based on averages. But you can get a great Cadaverlier or a terrible Focus too. Individual condition matters the most.
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Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: grampi
Ask any mechanic and he will tell you it's completely normal for ANY engine to use a qt of oil between oil changes...
But you yourself said yours uses a quart every 1000 to 1100 miles... That's not one quart between oil changes. That's unacceptable to most people.
I drive a lot - in your car I'd need a couple quarts every week.
The origianl poster said Corollas are known for using 1 liter every 5K miles...that is absolutely acceptable and it's not uncommon for any engine to use that much between changes...whether or not you feel an engine using a qt every 1000 miles is acceptable is a judement call...as I stated, if my engine had a noticeable decrease in power or fuel economy, or was fouling plugs all the time, I'd say the amount of oil useage was unacceptable...that's not the case...the amount of money it would cost to rebuild the engine or replace the car would buy A LOT of oil...
No, I said 1L every 5,000Km was what it consumed, which is 1L every 3100 miles.
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: grampi
Ask any mechanic and he will tell you it's completely normal for ANY engine to use a qt of oil between oil changes...
But you yourself said yours uses a quart every 1000 to 1100 miles... That's not one quart between oil changes. That's unacceptable to most people.
I drive a lot - in your car I'd need a couple quarts every week.
The origianl poster said Corollas are known for using 1 liter every 5K miles...that is absolutely acceptable and it's not uncommon for any engine to use that much between changes...whether or not you feel an engine using a qt every 1000 miles is acceptable is a judement call...as I stated, if my engine had a noticeable decrease in power or fuel economy, or was fouling plugs all the time, I'd say the amount of oil useage was unacceptable...that's not the case...the amount of money it would cost to rebuild the engine or replace the car would buy A LOT of oil...
No, I said 1L every 5,000Km was what it consumed, which is 1L every 3100 miles.
Grampi
You need to visit a junk yard.
I have one near me that scraps out 4500 cars per year. trust me there are just as many if not more Civics, Corrollas,etc as there are neons, Focus, Cavalier etc going thru the yard.
I would also make a generality that the Civics and Corrollas generally have more body rot etc and appear to me to be in worse condition. Note this yard gets all the old worn out beaters, not the newer smashed up type of cars.
So my point is that I wouldnt believe some rubbish you read in CR, open your eyes, go to a junk yard and do your own informal failure analysis of the 10-15 yr old cars going to the crusher,then make up your own mind.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Yeah right.
Certain generations of Corolla's loved to use oil. My buddy had a Corolla "S" that drank 1L every 5K (Km). VERY common issue.
The seventh generation Civic's love to eat front end parts. They were also known for lunching transmissions (though nowhere near as common as the Accord or Odyssey).
Simply being a product of one of the Nippon juggernauts does not make these products immune to failure and defect. They DO however hold their value better than the domestic marques (as do German cars, which, I think we can all agree, can have FAR more costly repairs if you deal with the stealership than either domestic or Asian nameplates) which makes them more "worth it" for people to sink money into. There's a reason I was able to purchase my wife's old Focus for $500.00 and this is it. Even though the repairs the car needed at 160,000 miles were very minor (the "big problem" was a massive vacuum leak fixed for like 50 cents) the owner thought the car was junk. It ended up being great, reliable transportation for my wife for very little money, even though the car had been obviously neglected.
Reliability/maintenance data based on hunderds of thousands of vehicles doesn't lie...and it also doesn't support your claims, if you're claiming the issues you mentioned are widespread...based on that data Corollas and Civics require far fewer repairs and stay on the road for many more miles than any of the domestics in their segment...and for your information, an engine using 1 liter of oil every 5K miles is considered normal...my Corolla has been using 1 qt every 1000-1100 miles for the last 100K miles, but it doesn't foul plugs and it still gets 38 MPG...I'd say that's more than acceptable...
You need to visit a junk yard.
I have one near me that scraps out 4500 cars per year. trust me there are just as many if not more Civics, Corrollas,etc as there are neons, Focus, Cavalier etc going thru the yard.
I would also make a generality that the Civics and Corrollas generally have more body rot etc and appear to me to be in worse condition. Note this yard gets all the old worn out beaters, not the newer smashed up type of cars.
So my point is that I wouldnt believe some rubbish you read in CR, open your eyes, go to a junk yard and do your own informal failure analysis of the 10-15 yr old cars going to the crusher,then make up your own mind.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Yeah right.
Certain generations of Corolla's loved to use oil. My buddy had a Corolla "S" that drank 1L every 5K (Km). VERY common issue.
The seventh generation Civic's love to eat front end parts. They were also known for lunching transmissions (though nowhere near as common as the Accord or Odyssey).
Simply being a product of one of the Nippon juggernauts does not make these products immune to failure and defect. They DO however hold their value better than the domestic marques (as do German cars, which, I think we can all agree, can have FAR more costly repairs if you deal with the stealership than either domestic or Asian nameplates) which makes them more "worth it" for people to sink money into. There's a reason I was able to purchase my wife's old Focus for $500.00 and this is it. Even though the repairs the car needed at 160,000 miles were very minor (the "big problem" was a massive vacuum leak fixed for like 50 cents) the owner thought the car was junk. It ended up being great, reliable transportation for my wife for very little money, even though the car had been obviously neglected.
Reliability/maintenance data based on hunderds of thousands of vehicles doesn't lie...and it also doesn't support your claims, if you're claiming the issues you mentioned are widespread...based on that data Corollas and Civics require far fewer repairs and stay on the road for many more miles than any of the domestics in their segment...and for your information, an engine using 1 liter of oil every 5K miles is considered normal...my Corolla has been using 1 qt every 1000-1100 miles for the last 100K miles, but it doesn't foul plugs and it still gets 38 MPG...I'd say that's more than acceptable...
OVERK1LL
I agree, all makes and models have their problems, but in the small car segment, the Japanese makes have fewer than the domestics. I also agree that more people fix their Japanese models because they are worth fixing, mainly because they have fewer problems to begin with...
I agree, all makes and models have their problems, but in the small car segment, the Japanese makes have fewer than the domestics. I also agree that more people fix their Japanese models because they are worth fixing, mainly because they have fewer problems to begin with...
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: grampi
Ask any mechanic and he will tell you it's completely normal for ANY engine to use a qt of oil between oil changes...
But you yourself said yours uses a quart every 1000 to 1100 miles... That's not one quart between oil changes. That's unacceptable to most people.
I drive a lot - in your car I'd need a couple quarts every week.
The origianl poster said Corollas are known for using 1 liter every 5K miles...that is absolutely acceptable and it's not uncommon for any engine to use that much between changes...whether or not you feel an engine using a qt every 1000 miles is acceptable is a judement call...as I stated, if my engine had a noticeable decrease in power or fuel economy, or was fouling plugs all the time, I'd say the amount of oil useage was unacceptable...that's not the case...the amount of money it would cost to rebuild the engine or replace the car would buy A LOT of oil...
No, I said 1L every 5,000Km was what it consumed, which is 1L every 3100 miles.
That's still an acceptable amount unless the the oil consumption is causing one of the problems I mentioned...
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: grampi
Ask any mechanic and he will tell you it's completely normal for ANY engine to use a qt of oil between oil changes...
But you yourself said yours uses a quart every 1000 to 1100 miles... That's not one quart between oil changes. That's unacceptable to most people.
I drive a lot - in your car I'd need a couple quarts every week.
The origianl poster said Corollas are known for using 1 liter every 5K miles...that is absolutely acceptable and it's not uncommon for any engine to use that much between changes...whether or not you feel an engine using a qt every 1000 miles is acceptable is a judement call...as I stated, if my engine had a noticeable decrease in power or fuel economy, or was fouling plugs all the time, I'd say the amount of oil useage was unacceptable...that's not the case...the amount of money it would cost to rebuild the engine or replace the car would buy A LOT of oil...
No, I said 1L every 5,000Km was what it consumed, which is 1L every 3100 miles.
That's still an acceptable amount unless the the oil consumption is causing one of the problems I mentioned...
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