Neo ATF 26,670 miles OCI 1994 Pontiac Grand Am GT

[benjamming]

1994 Pontiac Grand Am 3.1L 4T60-E Hydra-matic 4-speed
Blackstone did the 2 UOAs on this AT
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ATF used NEO ATF AMSOIL ATF

Sample Date Jun-30-2007 Mar-5-2005

Miles on oil 26,670 21,420

Miles on car 176,700 150,030

Make-up oil None None

Aluminum: 14 12

Chromium: 0 1

Iron: 199 177

Copper: 65 71

Lead: 24 28

Tin: 4 2

Molybdenum: 0 0

Nickel: 1 1

Manganese: 1 0

Silver: 0 0

Titanium: 0 0

Potassium: 2 0

Boron: 122 54

Silicon: 13 9

Sodium: 11 11

Calcium: 601 205

Magnesium: 3 4

Phosphorus: 310 378

Zinc: 15 8

Barium: 0 0

SUS Viscosity: 42.5 46.2

Flashpoint: 365 415

Water: 0 0

Insolubles: 0.2 Trace

TAN: 0.8 1.3

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Does anyone know the virgin TAN of this ATF?

Oil was changed at sampling with NEO ATF and a new filter. 6 quarts is required to refill after the pan is dropped. The sample was taken as the pan was dropped.

ATF complete maintenance history prior to above
87,101 miles factory fill pan dropped & changed with Coastal Dexron III & ATC filter
106,700 miles pan dropped & refilled with AMSOIL ATF & Deutsch filter
128,610 miles pan dropped & refilled with AMSOIL ATF & Hastings filter
0.5 bottle ARX added at 146,963 miles

 

[LargeCarManX2]

TAN indicates that the ATF is in good shape. The Neo also faired better than the Amsoil. What is the price per quart?

 

[benjamming]

You don't want to know the $/qt. I bought this case in July 2004 for ~ $9 per quart.

Blackstone's comments were: Other than viscosity and insolubles reading out of line, everything looks pretty good here. Iron wear increased with the longer oil use interval, though it and all wear levels are still well within the normal range, so we don't think any major mechanical problems are developing. A low viscosity & high insolubles usually indicates the oil saw some heat during it's use & it did have a burned smell to it, so we think it was a good time to have it changed out. The heat didn't turn the oil overly acidic. Stay with a ~ 25k mile OCI for now.

 

[Tempest]

This looks very close to a draw to me. The better viscosity and lower insolubles tilts it in favor of the Amsoil for me. I'm disappointed in both though. I expected much less wear from fluids this good.

Is the car beat on?

 

[Pablo]

I think people here get used to seeing engine UOA's and see so few tranny UOA's - it tends to skew judgment. I have no conception what good wear numbers are for this exact transmission.

What is the posted spec. for starting vis on the NEO?

 

[benjamming]

The posted starting visocity of the NEO fluid: 7.5 cSt @ 100°C. It's a shame we don't see more tranny UOAs. There are much more variabilities in those.

The car is taken well care of. I do drive fast but smart fast.

 

[Pablo]

Wow that is big shear.

The Amsoil started at about 7 and sheared to 6.1. NEO down to 5!

 

[VaderSS]

Automatics inherantly have some wear due to the clutches. Looks pretty darn good to me.

 

[unDummy]

Partial drain/refills do not give accurate data. There is just too much previous fill ATFs still in the rest of the transmission.

The problem with partial fluid UOAs is that they truly do not see what is going on in the tranny with consideration to the fluid. But, it definitely shows that OEM maintenance intervals are a joke.

Before comparing the 2 fluids, glance at the miles usage for both. Actually, without a full flush, especially with the Arx run, no comparison can be made. I wouldn't say either fluid worked better. But were pushed a little too far and at too low of a ratio to be judgemental.

Iron is high but consistent. Both fluids sheared. 1st Neo run is at 5cst. 2nd Amsoil run is at 6.1. But, Neo was run longer and on it 1st drain/refill. Amsoil also had the bulk of AutoRx to work with.

Install a full flow filter for less worry.
With the OEM fill to 87k miles, I would've started with a full flush. After using autorx, a full flush should've been done.

If partial drain/refills(pan drops) is your choice of maintenance, keep the intervals under 20k.
I'd seriously even consider a couple 10k runs to more quickly remove the residual Autorx in the system, to bump the viscosity, to get more of the same ATF in the unit, and to get the iron removed.

All things being considered, if tranny was never rebuilt, and is functioning normally, treat it with respect and it will last. Too bad that the 1st maintenance started late in the trannies life.

 

[benjamming]

True, partial drain/refills (40-50% in this case) don't give real accurate reading of the fluid used during its 1st fill. Same applies to an engine but at a much lesser extent, unless it's a rotary. Maybe that's why we don't see as many tranny analysis - much more difficult to interpret. Also, that's why I probably shouldn't have even posted Blackstone's comments. However, I would think they do give a reasonably accurate reading of the health of the transmission, no?

Why can no comparison be made due to ARX being in the case? I didn't think that ARX would negatively affect a UOA. What harm is there in leaving the ARX when the fluid has now been changed twice along with 2 different filters (current UOA with a Pioneer filter) and now on 3rd filter - an ACDelco?

I might have to agree that neither fluid worked better than the other.

It is indeed a shame the OEM fill was in there for so long. My wife had the car when we married. She comes from a family (as do most) that almost brag about having to never change the ATF.

BTW, the manual says 100k mile normal service interval or 15k mile for severe service.

The tranny has never been operated on & shifts fine.

 

[benjamming]

For some brain dead reason I haven't been opening up the filters on this car. All it takes is a flat head screwdriver. Well, I still had the filter out in the garage so I opened it up tonight. Here are the pictures:

 

[Pablo]

No way.

 

[Colt45ws]

I...I did not expect that.

 

[Steve S]

Even the most expensive oil will show poor results when diluted 60% by wasted oil.Do a flush by the cooler hose method. then do a uoa .

 

[Steve S]

Quote:

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I...I did not expect that.

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You need to see more transmission guts.

 

[Steve S]

Quote:

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No way.

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Yes way ,you need to see more transmission guts

 

[benjamming]

I wouldn't say it was diluted by 60% WASTED oil. Remember the remnants of the 2nd AMSOIL has 48k miles on it. What is left of the 1st AMSOIL now has 70k miles on it & this includes a felt filter that is changed every time. I do understand your point though.

BTW, how efficient are felt filters?

 

[Pablo]

There are guts and there are GUTS!! That's fairly gross IMHO.