Need Synthetic Recommendation

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4,035
Location
WA
Originally Posted by tiger862
As of right now all oils are technically "synthetic ". Conventional oil is now a blend so the oils today you get a name brand you trust for cheapest price that meets spec and sleep well. Oils have come a long way over last decade so with regular oil changes not much of a chance of an oil related problem just a mechanical problem that causes oil to fail (fuel dilution)
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Messages
112
Location
Great Lakes State, USA
HPS contains a high level of detergents. Due to this, they actually recommend running 3k OCI's for the first 2-3 changes, then extend the mileage out. RP will clean any sludge build-up in your engine which, I presume, is the cause of your issues. I would stay with the RP and do two short OCI's then go to an extended drain interval. I ran RP HPS in a BB Chevy 6L for years with no issues whilst running 12k oci's. I had to change my oil monthly, yet that beat using any other oil and doing them once a week or more. Direct from RP FAQ section: "Can your motor oil be used in older engines? Yes. Mileage and/or age is not a factor when used in a mechanically sound engine. In high-mileage applications, we do recommend running a minimum of two short 3,000 mile (5,000 km) intervals before extending the oil drain intervals. This will enable Royal Purple's high solvency to remove existing deposits gradually; if excessive, such deposits can restrict oil flow, as well as reduce the oil service life significantly." link: http://www.royalpurple.com/faqs/
 
Messages
857
Location
Maryland
Originally Posted by High_Noon
RayCJ: Yes, I am the original owner and I have the complete history of the vehicle documented. The engine is the Mercedes 119, 4.2 V8. I have probably done at least 50 (estimated) oil changes in the time I have owned the vehicle - all with Mobil 1 15W50 - and the interval was around 5-6K. There are no other signs of sludge build up by looking into the oil fill hole. I had the valve covers off within the past year and there was no sign of sludge. I will also look into the oil pick-up tube issue you mentioned. Thanks.
Go to 8:20 of this video to see the seal that causes problems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUAB7lKoIt0 FYI: I frequently watch this this other channel. This guy is a Mercedes wizard and rebuilds several engines per week. I've seen this guy deal with the same problem on other models of MB engines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC4BP4d3mUg EDIT: BTW... Given your good track record of oil changes, I think some other problem is looming on the horizon. Ray
 
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5,761
Location
New England
I would agree with other posters that it is a mistake to assume that RP is "real" synthetic, I know the HPS is a little different from the RP on a Walmart shelf but I highly doubt that it's all esters and/or PAO. Just because it's more expensive doesn't mean that it's made from more expensive base stocks...especially when you're comparing a minor player like RP with an industry giant like XOM. I tried to search for a MSDS for RP 20W50 HPS, but I can't find any such sheets for any RP oils on their site...to my mind, that in itself is a bad sign, unless it's browser issue on my side. I did find a webpage that was supposed to have MSDS, but it was empty to my view. Sometimes these sheets can give us a few clues about how an oil is composed, but not always and they are uniformly vague at best....they are not intended to give competitors the formula for composing an oil.
 
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4,689
Location
Ohio
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
I tried to search for a MSDS for RP 20W50 HPS, but I can't find any such sheets for any RP oils on their site...to my mind, that in itself is a bad sign
Chemical suppliers are required by law to provide SDS if requested so while it may not be available on their website, for example, you can call, email, etc to get one. FWIW, when I click the SDS link under one of their motor oils, it takes me to a form to fill out to request/receive one. It's from a 3rd-party too (many companies use 3rd-party companies to distribute, catalog, and so on their safety documentation. On the subsequent page, fill out the search boxes and get the SDS. I have the HPS 20W-50 SDS downloaded.
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Sometimes these sheets can give us a few clues about how an oil is composed, but not always and they are uniformly vague at best....they are not intended to give competitors the formula for composing an oil.
I wish this was repeated more often ! There are people who believe the SDS is the recipe for re-creating a product and it's not at all !!
 
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Messages
1,681
Location
South Carolina
Driven FR50 5w-50 uses PAO and mPAO base oils with 8% POE. The starting TBN is around 10. Either that or Red Line 15w-50 is probably as close as you'll get to what you're looking for.
 
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Messages
4,689
Location
Ohio
Originally Posted by TheLawnRanger
How long did you use the M1 group III before you found out it wasn't group IV? Did the group III M1 cause your pressure gauge to act up?
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3,346
Location
North TX
Quote
Mobil 1 seems to be the cheapest and easiest to source, but is not fully synthetic.
By all definitions it IS synthetic. Only in your mind is it not.
 
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14,810
Location
Illinois
Originally Posted by High_Noon
aquariuscsm: Thanks for the reply. I am currently in El Paso, although I grew up in Dallas. I will be in Dallas soon for a few weeks. The reason I switched from Mobil 1 15W50 is b/c it is not a true synthetic oil - it has a group III base stock.
The grp 3 thing is false. All M1 oils have a blend of base stock which includes esters and PAO and considered Grp 4. There are no oils with base stocks of PAO only. All are blends for better performance.
 
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7,174
Location
Michigan
Usually if you want a premium Syn Oil you need to pay a premium price. RP, Amsoil, Redline etc. If you want cheap and easy to find stick with major brands and run shorter oci's if concerned.
 
ZZ, I doubt many here consider RP a "premium" syn any more. Too many ho-hum oil reports, IIRC there are several with RP UOAs shearing out of grade etc with no appreciable fuel dilution. 10-15 years ago before they chased WM shelf stock status, maybe. Today, I'd take Warren Oil over RP and essentially get a 2-for-1 on oil changes with the savings. OP, even though I am not an M1 user or fanboi, I'd say you already have your answer. Go back to Mobil 1 and if you're trying to stretch your OCIs, do a UOA to get a trend going and see how far you can take the oil before you see breakdown, as noted by the viscosity, TBN, and insolubles readings. What exactly are you trying to accomplish for your engine by searching out a Group IV/V oil that you think a Group III+ oil cannot do?
 
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2,401
Location
WY
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by High_Noon
aquariuscsm: Thanks for the reply. I am currently in El Paso, although I grew up in Dallas. I will be in Dallas soon for a few weeks. The reason I switched from Mobil 1 15W50 is b/c it is not a true synthetic oil - it has a group III base stock.
The grp 3 thing is false. All M1 oils have a blend of base stock which includes esters and PAO and considered Grp 4. There are no oils with base stocks of PAO only. All are blends for better performance.
Is this actually true? Don't some oils contain only PAO's. Doesn't red Line and Amsoil among others sell Blends of IV/V
 
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23,690
Location
Dallas,Tx USA
Originally Posted by sloinker
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by High_Noon
aquariuscsm: Thanks for the reply. I am currently in El Paso, although I grew up in Dallas. I will be in Dallas soon for a few weeks. The reason I switched from Mobil 1 15W50 is b/c it is not a true synthetic oil - it has a group III base stock.
The grp 3 thing is false. All M1 oils have a blend of base stock which includes esters and PAO and considered Grp 4. There are no oils with base stocks of PAO only. All are blends for better performance.
Is this actually true? Don't some oils contain only PAO's. Doesn't red Line and Amsoil among others sell Blends of IV/V
Isn't M1 oil a grp 3 Visom base stock with certain grades containing a splash of pao to get the pour point down?
 
Messages
2,401
Location
WY
Originally Posted by High_Noon
sloinker: Unless I'm reading it incorrectly the Ravenol website states that the RAVENOL RFS SAE 15W-50 is fully synthetic, while the exact same oil is listed as semi-synthetic everywhere else I look. Yes, it is difficult to find a fully synthetic (group IV or V) motor oil in 15W50. Liqui-Moly, Motul and Red Line seem to be the main choices in a fully synthetic 15W50 motor oil, but they are significantly more expensive than Mobil 1. Both Motul and Liqui-Moly refers to their 15W50 as "motorcycle oil" - not sure if that matters. Mobil 1 seems to be the cheapest and easiest to source, but is not fully synthetic. tiger862: Although I'd rather not do it, I may just have to switch back to Mobil 1 15W50.
You are right, depending on where you look they have both 100% and semi-synthetic RFS 15W50 from Ravenol. This is a fairly recent change afaik. At least they clearly state that it is group III based with PAO and ester and as such a "semi-synthetic" under German labeling laws. That oil is a fully synthetic oil in the rest of the world.
 

High_Noon

Thread starter
Messages
19
Location
TX
LubeFiner: Thanks for that information. This morning I looked down into the engine from the oil filler cap and I can't tell definitively, but the cam shaft(s) appear to be slightly cleaner than when I was using Mobil 1. There's still a rich/golden-brownish hue, but by no means could it be considered sludge. What I meant by stating that my mechanic was just seeing the beginning signs of sludge present itself is illustrated in this photo: [Linked Image] What my mechanic was referring to is the dark brown "film" on the top of the canister filter. He said that this indicated that I needed to do an oil change sooner. RayCJ: Thanks for the link. I will definitely have my mechanic check that O ring the next time I take my vehicle in for service. Virtus_Probi: It's has become clear that the information I obtained when I was researching RP was not entirely correct. Like I stated, my first clue should have been RPs refusal to disclose the type of base stock they were using. RDYWAR: Thanks for the recommendation on the Driven FR50, but I'm not sure 5W50 would be the best choice for my engine. I've had several Mercedes Mechanics highly recommend either 15W50 or 20W50 for my engine. When I made the switch I came very close to switching to Red Line 15W50. The only reason I didn't was b/c RP was easier and cheaper for me to source. Red Line 15W50 is still a top contender, however. RTexasF: Perhaps M1 is "synthetic," but I'm learning a great deal in this post. After researching M1 and their formulation change, I viewed their switch to group III base stock as more of a semi-synthetic rather than a fully synthetic. After reading ad_infinitum and tig1's posts, I now know that my reasoning was faulty. What contributed to my previous thinking was that Mobil sued Castrol over this very issue and the fact that European oils cannot market themselves a fully synthetic with such a formulation due to the more stringent laws and marketing requirements. At the time I did not fully understand that all oils were actually blends, but how these blends compare to fully synthetic European oils, I do not know. I guess the question boils down to: How is M1 marketed in Europe - as fully synthetic? Also, from ad_infinitum and tig1's posts, I now know that Mobil is now using Group IV in the form of Alkalated Naphthalene, and that some blends are using POEs (synthetic esters). Mobil 1 is also using more GTLs (gas to liquid) in place of any group 3 base stocks. So, it appears that Mobil is moving closer to a "fully" synthetic formula. Is my logic faulty here? ZZman: Duly noted. I don't particularly want to pay a premium for a "fully synthetic" oil. Currently, the best price I can find on Red Line 15W50 is $9.72/qt., but I won't always be able to get that price - most of the time, Red Line sells for $13.00 - $22.00/qt., which is too much, not to mention it's not as easy to source as M1 or RP. SubieRubyRoo: I'm beginning to think the same thing about RP. Certainly, it seems that RP is no better than M1 and may, in fact, be inferior. I think you may be correct that switching back to M1 is the answer. Sloinker: This was my thinking as well and I'm interested in the answer. (some oils use base stocks that utilize group IV & V). Regarding Ravenol, it's too bad that it's a semi-synthetic here in America. ***** Does anyone know if the "motorcycle oil" designation of Motul and Liqui-Moly matters for use in a passenger vehicle?
 
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16,546
Location
Upper Midwest
Very few manufacturers or blenders disclose their base stock composition. This is because oil should be marketed by approvals and certifications, not base stock. You can have a "Group IV/V" oil that is functionally inferior to a "Group III/IV" oil when performance is actually evaluated against certifications. Additives and proper blending have a major influence on performance. Your engine should be using an oil that carries an appropriate Mercedes-Benz approval (probably 229.3 or 229.5), which is easily found at Walmart in either Castrol 0W-40 or Mobil 1 0W-40. These oils have demonstrated performance in regards to oxidation thickening, deposit formation and sludge. Your focus on base stock, while typical for some people on here is misguided. Don't use any oils that say they are "recommended for" or "suitable", only those which carry the actual approval. No Royal Purple oils have the correct approvals. Oh and ExxonMobil did not sue Castrol as it was not a lawsuit. It was a complaint with the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau. And it isn't "European" oils that have the marketing restriction, it is only in Germany. Something that in my opinion will eventually come back to bite them because they will forgo oils that are superior but don't fit the narrow definition Germany has carved out.
 

High_Noon

Thread starter
Messages
19
Location
TX
SubieRubyRoo: I will add: Your question regarding what I am trying to accomplish with a fully synthetic oil is a good one. I maintain my vehicle meticulously and with 240K I want it to last a lot longer without needing major/catastrophic repairs. My E420 still runs "like new" and I want to keep it that way. Although rare, I've read about these engines lasting a million miles, while I don't really expect my engine to last that long, I believe that 4-500+K is reasonable to expect from an engine that is so well engineered and maintained. I want my motor oil to be the best I can reasonably expect it to be at keeping the engine clean and providing superior lubrication while minimizing friction at both start-up and while in operation.
 
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High_Noon

Thread starter
Messages
19
Location
TX
Kschachn: Thanks for the excellent post. You have put the issue well into perspective. I now know that there's a lot more to it than just the type of base stock. Kschachn & SubieRubyRoo: I just spoke to a Mercedes dealer and confirmed that Mercedes-Benz approval 229.3 is correct for my '94 E420. The only 50 weight oil listed is Mobil 1 5W-50. There are numerous other oils listed in 0W-30, 0W-40, 10W-40, 5W-30 & 5W-40. Considering that I have used M1 15W-50 for the last 24 years and RP 20W-50 only for my last 2 oil changes, and that my engine has 240K, would there be any issue switching to a lighter viscosity? Also, I wonder why so many Mercedes mechanics recommended M1 15W-50 if it's not listed on Mercedes-Benz approval 229.3? Although M1 15W-50 is not listed on MB Approval 229.3, it is listed on other Approval forms for other older MB V8 engines. Walmart does not appear to carry M1 5W50, so I'm inclined to switch back to M1 15W-50 since I have used it for so long without any issues whatsoever. Or, perhaps, M1 5W-50 if I can find it easily. What say you?
 
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Messages
16,546
Location
Upper Midwest
You can use Mobil 1 5W-50 but it is nearly $10 a quart, above your target price and nearly double the cost of Castrol/Mobil 1 0W-40 at Walmart. If your engine is not consuming excessive oil now then there is no reason not to try the 40-grade instead for half the price. My old BMW works fine on it, I use Castrol because it still has Longlife-01 approval.
 
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