Need some counseling

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Kuato
I'm in the "change early club" so completely agree. Although the FF might be something special, there is no actual evidence or information so we really don't know. What we DO know is that there is always a higher amount of particulates with a new engine, and that removing those particles is a good thing.


So the filter doesn't remove them? They just sit in the oil until you change it?

 

[MinamiKotaro]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Kuato
I'm in the "change early club" so completely agree. Although the FF might be something special, there is no actual evidence or information so we really don't know. What we DO know is that there is always a higher amount of particulates with a new engine, and that removing those particles is a good thing.


So the filter doesn't remove them? They just sit in the oil until you change it?


The oil filter traps them just fine. Leave the factory fill in until the olm goes off.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: MinamiKotaro
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Kuato
I'm in the "change early club" so completely agree. Although the FF might be something special, there is no actual evidence or information so we really don't know. What we DO know is that there is always a higher amount of particulates with a new engine, and that removing those particles is a good thing.


So the filter doesn't remove them? They just sit in the oil until you change it?


The oil filter traps them just fine. Leave the factory fill in until the olm goes off.



Guys, if the filter captured ALL the particles then UOAs would show no Iron, Aluminum, or other metals. Ever.

Of course it can be argued that particles that are small enough to get past the filter don't cause wear.

However unless there's a study that can show this for a fact, then it's safer/a good idea to remove the oil that has a LOT more contamination compared to post-break in averages.

This is my approach when I'm breaking in the engine of my new and expensive vehicle. And yes I know there are plenty of vehicles out there with 300000 miles that were broken in on FF for 10k miles.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: raytseng
what does sludged engines from not changing oil for 50,000milrs have to do with wear particles from the ff?

if you're jumping on the fear train at least post the right scary pictues of some scored bearings or something


If you did not get it, those engines were serviced "on time" according to the "free" service offered by BMW. Which is, in effect, an over extended oil change interval.

 

[SilverC6]

Those engines all look like they have had severe coolant system leaks that found its way back into the oil.

Bad gaskets, anyone?

Still, I'd do the first change in your new Toyota around 800 - 1,000 miles and then a normal OCI after that.

Normal for me is 5,000 miles.

 

[kschachn]

Once again the metals that show up in an ICP or AA analysis are not the ones doing damage in an engine. The metals that show up in the analysis are the result of wear, not the cause. You could have an oil sample that shows massive numbers on a metal yet be completely harmless to internal engine components. Likewise you can also have a sample of oil that shows no metal content on an analysis yet would cause catastrophic damage if it were in an engine.

Unless you do an acid digestion of the sample no particles larger than approximately 3 microns will show up on an ICP.

Originally Posted By: Kuato
Guys, if the filter captured ALL the particles then UOAs would show no Iron, Aluminum, or other metals. Ever.

Of course it can be argued that particles that are small enough to get past the filter don't cause wear.

However unless there's a study that can show this for a fact, then it's safer/a good idea to remove the oil that has a LOT more contamination compared to post-break in averages.

 

[Ifixyawata]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Kuato
I'm in the "change early club" so completely agree. Although the FF might be something special, there is no actual evidence or information so we really don't know. What we DO know is that there is always a higher amount of particulates with a new engine, and that removing those particles is a good thing.


So the filter doesn't remove them? They just sit in the oil until you change it?


My hypothesis:

If you run your first OCI all the way out to 0% on OLM then you can simply replace the oil pump due to all the damage caused by the break-in metals.

Either that or a true bleed-and-feed system that only feeds brand new oil into the engine and after making one pass through it is immediately fed into a 'waste oil' tank.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Ifixyawata
My hypothesis: If you run your first OCI all the way out to 0% on OLM then you can simply replace the oil pump due to all the damage caused by the break-in metals.


That's not a hypothesis, that's a statement based in no facts whatsoever.

No mainstream automobile manufacturer that I've seen recommends an early change, nor is your statement correlated to my personal experience. I ran both my Toyota vehicles and the Honda out to the recommended OCI, and none of the three have low oil pressure nor have I changed the pump on any of them. And the silly notion that automakers want to have the engine fail after the warranty is also a statement based in no facts.

The amount of hysteria associated with the initial OCI is just amazing.

 

[Gene K]

My 2010 Ram Truck OLM went off at 2500 mi (change within 500 mi) on my first change. After that it went off at 5500 miles. After talking to other owners this seemed common. Can't say if it was programmed in or the result of idling at the dealer.

I also believe the Subaru STi may have an early first change at least on some years.

 

[Ifixyawata]

Originally Posted By: kschachn

That's not a hypothesis, that's a statement based in no facts whatsoever.

No mainstream automobile manufacturer that I've seen recommends an early change, nor is your statement correlated to my personal experience. I ran both my Toyota vehicles and the Honda out to the recommended OCI, and none of the three have low oil pressure nor have I changed the pump on any of them. And the silly notion that automakers want to have the engine fail after the warranty is also a statement based in no facts.

The amount of hysteria associated with the initial OCI is just amazing.


The 'get you through the warranty' period feelings on here are pretty entertaining. My hypothesis was 99% snark, I think when I had my Neon and it was new, I changed the FF at about 1500 miles but it was because I wanted to switch to M1 at the time. Then again, I also changed that M1 on a 3k interval....

If I ever buy a new car again I will run out the initial fill per the OLM. I wouldn't even comment on threads like these if it could be 'here's what I do, do what you like'. But it seems like there's an attitude of 'well your engine won't last as long but go ahead and do what the evil manufacturer tells you to do.'

 

[rrounds]

At the very least, pull the oil filter and look at the bottom of the pleats. Take a good long look and then say, yep that looks good. I've never seen a filter off of a new car that looked good, they all had lots of large metal flakes. If you think that the filter gets them all, your worng. Even with a 0/20 or 5/20 you will get some oil through the bypass when you first start it up cold.

All of my cars when started cold go from 0 to 2500 rpm or higher, on my S2000 the oil pressure goes over 100 psi until the rpm's drop or the oil warms up.

I have never put more than 100 miles on the ff of any new car I've bought.

Like I said take a look at your oil filter, on your suv it should be easy to get at.

ROD

 

[Carguy21]

I'm still wondering, how many people change the FF on the first hundreds of miles? That's almost a rule here, but what about the people with minumim to zero knowledge about cars? How often do you see new cars with oil pump problems cause by the FF? The "normal" customer of new cars just follow the OLM and/or the OM. I know the FF is not the best stuff to rely on but I don't think the manufacurers will put something with very low quality.