Need help from the electrical savvy........

[97f150]

Just looking for a couple idea/opinions/advice from any electricians or electrical gurus.
I recently purchased a 3 bedroom home that was built in 1959. The seller lived in the home for 20 years and didnt change the configuration, but the previous owner converted the house from a 2 bedroom, to a 3 bedroom by bricking in the garage and making a 400 sq ft living room, and the previous living room became the 3rd bedroom. All of the outlets in the house except for 5 in the living room are not grounded. There are 6 more in the living room that are not grounded. The rest in the original house are not grounded either. I changed all the outlets as some of them were changed but a lot of them dated back to the 70s at least.
My panel is a breaker setup that is grounded from outside main panel, and just below that panel is a rod that is driven into the ground, which grounds the main panel. I had an electrician wire in an outlet for my electric dryer and he had no problems ground that to the ground bar in the breaker panel. My problem arose when I moved on Saturday and when trying to set up my washing machine the outlet was only 2 prong and my washing machine requires a ground. When I took the outlet apart I realized that there is a ground wire in there but whoever installed this outlet cut it back in the coating and didnt connect it. I peeled the coating back and connected it to a 3 prong outlet and the washing machine works but the outlet is still ungrounded. My next course of action is to recheck all the other outlets and make sure that there isnt a ground wire present somewhere that was just cut back, and if there is check the breaker panel and connect it there also. If not then somewhere in the near future rewire (ugh not looking forward to that) all the outlets. I know deep down that there is not other options, but the right way is preferred. Am I on the right track with this? There are some breakers grounded on the ground bars in the panel but not all of them, so I know some new wire will have to be ran. Thanks for any ideaa/ expertise.

Oh, and heres a quick pic because it is my first home and I am a bit proud of it:

The window units are gone, the seller was using those instead of fixing the fan on the central unit, this was fixed before the inspection.

 

[eljefino]

You'll need the grounds connected all the way on that circuit. Preferably also connected to the ground lugs on the outlets. They daisy-chain outlets and your washer could be the first one or the last one in the chain. Who knows what else is on that chain, but it's current code to make the washer a dedicated outlet with one plug instead of the normal duplex.

In your fusebox will be the neutral-ground bar. The bare copper wires and white neutrals will/should both be connected to this-- and this will be connected to your ground spike and the utility neutral bare wire.

To test your ground, you should have voltage between hot (black) and ground just like you would to neutral.

If you can't manage to get this hooked up, a ground fault outlet will be more safe than a two-prong. Some places it's legal if you put a "no equipment ground" sticker on it. You can put this on the first outlet in the daisy-chain and it'll protect the rest of them too. If it trips, then you'll have to remember the GFCI which could be in another room.

When you pull the outlet out, is there a metal box behind it? Did they use "romex" (plastic sheath)? Did they use metal conduit? If you have conduit and metal boxes you can ground to that, but you have to count on the conduit conducting without resistance all the way back to the breaker box.

Congrats on home ownership!!!

 

[JTK]

Congrats! Nice ranch you've got there! I've owned two 1950's era homes and both were ungrounded everywhere but the kitchens, baths and basements, so I feel your pain.

I know I got gigged by home inspectors on both of them when we sold these homes. Over the years I had replaced most of the ancient loosy-goosy no ground duplex receptacles with three prong just because of their availability.

Luckily my lack of grounding was living/family/bedroom. I wouldn't worry about those rooms unless you plan to do major drywall work in the future. You could easily pull new wire up walls and through your attic space then.

Joel

 

[chad8]

The short cheap answer from an electrician of 25 years.
1 find each circuit
2 find each circuits first plug nearest the panel
3 install ground fault plugs in each circuit at the first plug

$9 each at home depot. Old house like that might have 6-10 circuits.

This is the electrical codes answer (exception) for ungrounded outlets .
You can also use ground fault breakers or if required , arc fault breakers in bedrooms if your town requires them , but they are expensive.

A lot of times the boxes are grounded with a thin wire that goes to the water pipes. You can check this with a wire hooked to your cold water pipe in series with a continuity tester to your new grounded outlets ground prong hole or you can remove them and look for a real thin wire.

 

[97f150]

Thanks guys. There is no metal conduit in the wiring anywhere, just the copper wires sheathed in rubber. As far as the junction boxes go, they are all metal except for the 5 that are grounded, those 5 are plastic. Looks like I will be spending some time in the attic running new wire a little at a time. The outlets are "daisy chained" together as well, with the washing machine one being the 2nd in line and the one in the bedroom being the first ( bedroom is on the other side of the wall the washing machine sits on). I have a lot of drywall work planned in the next couple years as well. Every room except the kitchen and master bedroom which was already redone.

 

[eljefino]

Depending on how much slack they left you you may be able to use the ground wire already in the romex. If you can get ahold of it enough to twist you can add an eight inch pigtail that will give you enough to work with.

The wiring "should" be in a clamp in the back of the box for anti-yank purposes. Loosen that clamp and see if you can pull more through. Cut the breaker (please) and zip back the outer sheath of the romex an inch or two to see if the ground is hiding in there.

 

[97f150]

I took apart some outlets in the kitchen which is on the same circuit as the one in the laundry for the washing machine and one in the master bedroom. ALL of the outlets except the light in the kitchen have a ground wire. The circuit is not grounded to the ground bar in the panel though, so it is a dead ground. The only things I see grounded in the breaker panel is the furnace and A/C and their misc fans/bells/whistles, the outlet for the dryer I recently had added and the 5 outlets in the living room and outside outlets. The rest arent grounded to the panel, nor is there a ground wire in the wiring for these. Just the hot and common. I really hate to have to rewire the house, would it be feasible to just fish a ground wire for each circuit from the panel to each respectable junction, or is an entire rewire in my future? Im planning on having an electrician come out sometime this week and give me an estimate on grounding all of this so at least I know where I will be (likely) at the end of all this. I will compare his estimate to my materials/hospital bills/etc lol.

 

[eljefino]

See chad's answer re GFCIs. I would not tear the walls apart just to run a ground wire. Can you post a picture of your typical wiring? I'm not convinced we're talking about the same stuff.

 

[97f150]

I am seriously considering the GCFI breakers for the ungrounded circuits. Whats got me concerned about this aside from the safety issues, is the fact that my circuit tester for example, on the outlet my television sits on, it will tell me that it is an open ground with nothing plugged in. The minute i plug my TV in which is the only thing on that outlet with a ground prong, the tester tells me that the outlet is grounded. I may be wrong, but I take that as the outlet is being grounded by my television. Same with my fridge, microwave and washing machine.

I am considering the breakers at $35 a throw, because I have no idea how to tell where the circuit starts and ends. The only thing I didnt take apart that shut off when I flipped the breaker was the light fixture in the kitchen. 3 other outlets in the kitchen have ground wires, so does the bedroom outlet, and so does the washing machine outlet, but none of them is grounded. When I took the light switch out there is no ground wire. There is also no ground wire coming off of the breaker for this circuit either. I dont know of any GCFI light switches.

 

[eljefino]

I'm seeing mostly proper grounds. See the bare wires in the same screws or on the same bus as the white insulated ones? That's how they should be.

You could "theoretically" connect neutral and ground inside the outlet box, and it would fool your circuit tester, but it's a no-no. The idea is if the chassis of your TV gets "hot" for whatever reason, and you touch it and your feet are grounded, that current would go through you. With the TV having a backup path to ground, the current would go through it, not you, and maybe even blow the breaker.

The GFCI outlet knows when some of the current going out to the device is not making it home, and trips.

My only concern is I see three cloth covered two conductor wires. Is there more of this?

 

[97f150]

Just those 3 from the panel. I changed just about every outlet in this house and didnt see anymore.

 

[tom slick]

In my house the ground wires are wrapped around one of the nails that fasten the box to the stud.

If you have a multimeter, check for continuity between the box and neutral with the receptacle removed.

 

[97f150]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
In my house the ground wires are wrapped around one of the nails that fasten the box to the stud.

If you have a multimeter, check for continuity between the box and neutral with the receptacle removed.


Unfortunatly none of the wires in this house are BX or armored, so no grounding at the box. I took a few receptacles loose and check with my multi meter from the hot to the box and the continuity is "1" which is no continuity.

This is where I am. At some point the original owner converted and added to the 1 car garage to make a big living room. There are 6 outlets on the addition that are grounded to the panel correctly. The other 5 in the original "garage" are not grounded but at some point was rewired (Im guessing when the conversion was made), because romex was used and whoever wired it, ignorant sob that they were, actually stripped the ground wire out of that romex.

The guy I bought the house from remodeled the kitchen, master bedroom, and bath. There are still no grounds in these but thankfully the modern romex he used still has the ground wire in it, just cut back, I assume because of the lack of ground at the beginning of the circuit, which in the kitchen has to be the original light fixture. I took apart every outlet and it all has modern stuff except that switch. It is also this was in the bathroom and master bedroom. I cut, peeled and rewired these to include the grounds to save the trouble while executing my later plan.

My plan of action is as follows. I will replace the breakers with GCFI breakers in the next month or so in an attempt to get the electrical in this place a bit safer. Over the next year or so, I will buy a roll or two of romex a month as I can afford it and rewire one circuit at a time until it is all done. I dont forsee having to cut into any walls, and if I do then "oh well" as the original 2 bedrooms and hallway still have to be remodeled, so does the current living room, so a hole here and there is not a big deal. All of the outlets in the living room that need grounding are chained, so working from the box to the beginning switch, then from outlet to outlet will be aggravating but once I run out of wire I can take a break for a month lol. What prompted this, is my anal retentivness and the 3 cloth covered wires. If I replace those I may as well do the rest of the house and for that I will be able to sleep better at night.

 

[eljefino]

Just get a monster 250 foot roll. It's cheaper and you can start your investment in metals!

While you're at it, note that modern kitchen code requires two 20 amp circuits plus a third lighting circuit which is not tied into the other two. This way if you light a fire you can at least see it to put it out. It's nice to have a house where the microwave doesn't slow down when the fridge kicks on.

The house has been standing half a century and the previous owners don't sound as careful as you. Have fun with your project!

 

[97f150]

I just installed 5 GFI breakers for the side of the panel that is ungrounded. The only thing I dont like about it is I had to put the fridge on one because that circuit is tied into the bathroom. That may change in a week or so and I will put 2 GFIs in the bathroom and put the regular back in. While at "the" home d-pot, I priced a 1000 ft roll of 12-2 romex at $350. I may just get this to start with, itll be enough to cover a good bit, if not all. I will for dang sure be changing a couple things as well eljefino, as it is now, the 2 wall outlets where the fridge is is tied into the bathroom, and the wall where the sink is, is tied into the washing machine/ 1 bedroom outlet, and the main light is tied in with the hall, and front bedroom. Oh what fun this will be.
The saddest part of all of this is that it makes me think of my dad and wish that he was here. My grandfather owned and operated an industrial electric business. He, my dad, and both of my uncles were all master electricians. My grandfather retired, my dad ended up driving a semi, and both of my uncles are in new construction. I know that if my dad were still alive he would be out here with his credit card out rewiring this whole place.