Need assistance from plumbers/water heater guys

[blue_goose]

Ok I'll try to make this short as possible. Replaced my 20 something year old 40 gallon heater(natural gas) with a Kenmore 40 Gallon Power Miser 9 last Monday.

Have been having a bunch of problems since. Came downstairs yesterday morning and noticed that the red and blue plastic rings on the feeds had melted on the edges facing the flue! Called the plumber and he started making up a whole bunch of theories that all sound like absolutely huge dollars to do. First he said well you have 3 inch venting here and new water heaters require 4 inch venting (I looked in the manual and it says that either 3 or 4 inch is acceptable) Next he said the chimney might need to be redone which I find insane since the old water heater worked just fine with this chimney. Next he said I might need a Power Vent but that runs close to 1500 bucks! Or maybe a fan is needed to help with the draft which is still several hundred dollars


So I guess to make the questions as simple as possible, should a replacement water heater be any different than one that it is replacing??? He kept saying the airflow isn't as strong in the new tanks so that is where my problem may be...it sounds like he is just throwing everything out there...one thing I did notice is that he used the same vent hood that was on the old system that is still attached to the vent pipe..the instructions in the manual say to make sure that you use the hood that comes with the water heater..he said that they are all the same size so that should not matter.



Well in any event he is coming back out today to replace the whole water heater......I am so confused

Can any resident plumber/HVAC/water heater install guys shed some light on this?

her are some pics.....is it true that when a water heater kicks in there will be some spillage of the exhaust until the vent and chimney heats up to draw? Just wondering as when it first kicks on I can feel heat if I cup my hands around the vent (not for very long though as it heats quick!)

Thanks so much for any advice and sorry for the long post!!


Goose

 

[Gary Allan]

I'm not qualified, but it's obvious that the hot gasses aren't being handled by the flue and are being pushed out laterally. Unless there's a front end choke, with a connected throttling gas valve, then the outlet volume is the outlet volume.

 

[duaneb9729]

does the venting for the water heater go into a masonry flu?

i would pull the venting off at the chimney and look for a blockage there.

the damage you are seeing is caused by the flu gases back drafting into the house!

So this is dangerous.

I have seen dead birds, blocking the flu piping both inside the furnace venting and the water heater venting, i have found squirrels both live and dead inside flu piping, the best or worst was a dead duck blocking the main chimney

if i can help please pm me, i do this for a living

 

[duaneb9729]

oh and the mechanical code does want the water heater flu piping to be four inch. not that it wont work in three, but the our inspectors want to see it in four inch.

that being said its highly unlikely that this is the total cause, but its possible for it to be a contributing cause.

good luck!

 

[Captain_Klink]

if you are able to add an upward slope to the horizontal run, this would help. you need to observe it while it is turning on: there might be an initial rush outwards, that is doing the melting, and then check to see if once the draft gets going whether there is still any spillage. this will tell you whether any animal has fallen down the chimney, and whether the chimney is working properly. if the new heater has an electronic ignition, this may help explain the problem. it is actually not that much of a worry, at one point i was growing some plants in my basement and completely disconnected the flue to increase the CO2 content of the air in my growing room. I installed a Carbon Monoxide detector, to make sure things were safe, and the CO detector never came on. So just to be safe, buy a CO detector, and see if you can increase the upward slope of the flue, and I suspect you'll be alright. My heater actually has melted a little bit of the black pipe insulation, but not the actual red and blue plastic.

 

[bepperb]

That flue wouldn't pass code here, you can't have it running laterally after such a short vertical rise. That's probably in your water heater manual as well.

 

[blue_goose]

Thanks guys new water is installed..I guess we will see what happens..just heated up the first batch and no melt-age of the plastic....only thing that concerns me a little is when I look down the length of the exhaust pipe as it runs out and up to the chimney I can see what looks like vapors rising or that shimmering heat look that you see on roads during the heat of summer

I am known to be totally anal about things like this but leaking pipes scare the heck out of me..I can see like cobwebs and dust flickering but don't know if this is normal as that pipe sure as heck does get way too hot to touch!

My C02 detector in the basement is not registering anything......

Plumber said he is 99% sure the issues I was having was due to a defective water heater...showed me the core thingy that unscrews from the middle of the heater and said that there was too much carbon build up on there for such a new heater

Have no idea about any of this stuff so not sure if being fed a line

The center hole seems to be a little off center of the middle of the vent hood...this ok?

Sorry to sound like such a worry wart but I am when it comes to this stuff..

Thanks


Goose

 

[brianl703]

To check if a water heater is drawing properly, take a lighter and put it next to the vent hood with the water heater's burner going. If the flame from the lighter is drawn up into the vent hood, it's working fine. If the flame goes out..you have a problem.

 

[doitmyself]

This site below is visited by many professional plumbers with good advice to homeowners.

They have an attitude about diy'ers doing potentially danger creating work, so ask your question "the right way". In this case you have a professional installer, so you are good to go.

Please share if you find out more.

http://www.plbg.com/forum/list.php?1

 

[blue_goose]

Thank you that is a very helpful site!

Guys please feel free to chime in if you might have any advice on the latest question I posted

Thanks

Goose

 

[tom slick]

Around here your flue pipe would have to be double wall.

Did he pull out the anode and tell you it had too much calcium? There is no carbon in any part of a water heater.

 

[blue_goose]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
Around here your flue pipe would have to be double wall.

Did he pull out the anode and tell you it had too much calcium? There is no carbon in any part of a water heater.


Doesn't the exhaust that goes out the flue contain carbon monoxide?


Goose

 

[tom slick]

I'm just trying to help you figure out what in the heck your plumber was talking about.
How would carbon monoxide (a gas) build up on on the core thingy that unscrews from the middle?

What color was the core thingy and how big was it?

 

[Pop_Rivit]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
There is no carbon in any part of a water heater.


Since it appears to be a gas heater the burner might be faulty-thus the carbon on the burner.

 

[blue_goose]

Oh Im sorry about the carbon...he said that because in a gas water heater there is the curvy piece of metal that runs down the middle of the water heater...we pulled it out of the 1st water heater and there was some black buildup on it...he said that shouldn't be there...whether he knows what he is talking about or not is beyond my knowledge

Goose

 

[brianl703]

You will get carbon buildup from a natural gas appliance if it's not burning properly, but the flames will be very yellow if that's happening. If they're mostly blue with just a bit of yellow every now and then, it's burning properly.

 

[andyd]

I think you got a dud hotwater heater. But your plumber isnt getting high marks either. The fittings in those pics were pretty chewed up. My work is better and I'm a rank ameteur

 

[Audi Junkie]

Flue is wrong.

 

[duaneb9729]

the black sootie looking stuff is from improper combustion, from low gas pressure.

 

[tom slick]

Originally Posted By: Blue_Goose
Oh Im sorry about the carbon...he said that because in a gas water heater there is the curvy piece of metal that runs down the middle of the water heater...we pulled it out of the 1st water heater and there was some black buildup on it...he said that shouldn't be there...whether he knows what he is talking about or not is beyond my knowledge

Goose


no its fine, I was just trying to make sure you were not misinterpreting what he was telling you or that he was feeding you a line. Black certainly means carbon build up. In my original post it should have read "shouldn't be any carbon"
You must have had multiple install issues if you are getting hot gas coming out of the collar and melting plastic but such poor combustion that you have a soot build up.

I've usually seen a whitish-grey color build up if any on burners but they've always been burning close to correct.