Need Advice

[bulwnkl]

Depending upon your answer to the 'how loud is the noise' question, here are some possibilities. First, it's a 98% chance it's a lifter. Your car is 1 year older than my XT6, and that vintage (heck, most any vintage Subaru) gets sticky lifters. Sometimes you can get them unstuck, sometimes you can't.

Is the noise noticeable when you're driving down the highway with the radio on? If so, I don't think you're going to fix it with anything at all you add to the oil or fuel. Usually, the Marvel Mystery Oil or some Automatic Transmission Fluid added to the oil will clear up the lifters shortly. If it doesn't, you usually have to replace them on these Subies.

I cannot tell you how much a mechanic would charge to replace a lifter. However, if you decide to tear into the engine, I suggest you go to someone who works on Subarus a fair a bit. Otherwise, they probably won't get the timing belt(s) put back on correctly and the car either won't run or will barely run until it's fixed (fortunately, that mistake will NOT cause damage to these engines). Even a mechanic who has done it before can screw it up.

I don't know whether the flush "caused" the lifter to start sticking (assuming that's what it is). You have enough miles that it could have started on its own, but it sure is an interesting coincidence.

Good luck!

 

[hannaco]

The MOA that was added is made by BG products. See: http://www.bgprod.com/bgconsumer/bgservices/lube.html
They seem to make things that work.

Is the motor the flat opposed 4 cylinder?

 

[Norm Olt]

Sorry to hear about your Suby problem. I have a '92 SVX with 120K+ miles: your Legacy has a similar in design, very durable engine. The use of 15W-50 M1 in and of itself should not hurt it in any way. The 10W-30 M1 is a very fine oil choice for these motors: I happen to use Chevron Supreme dyno 10W-30 because it works really well for me.

The "flush" they told you was mandatory was most probably unnecessary. The ticking is, as opined above, most probably a lifter sticking (for whatever reason) and it MAY be related to the flush but almost certainly is not related to the 15W-50 oil use.

With the amount of work you have had recently performed your car should be in a position to last you a long time, once you get the ticking problem ironed out. I agree with the advice to stay away from the Car Doctor. They seem to be more concerned about getting rid of your $ than your problem with the tick...

Your initial post refers to "pinging" and in a later post you describe it a a "ticking sound" which you ALWAYS HAD UPON STARTUP but went away when warmed up. Pinging is usually gas and/or ignition-related, ticking is usually mechanical. Please also note that you drove the car for over 5,000 miles without this problem exascerbating. That's really a pretty long way to stretch the cause & effect thread, IMHO. You could have experienced this same set of circumstances without ever changing to synthetic oil.

The people who did your timing belt, etc., would have been the best place to have the ticking checked out, but they're gone... Try finding an independant shop that specializes in Subaru: hopefully one that is open on Saturday so you don't have to rent a car for work?

I've used Auto-Rx totally as a preventatative cleaner (although it did help with some oil leaks) and it is an excellent product: it WILL NOT REPAIR A WORN-OUT LIFTER, if that is actually your problem. MY review of the Chilton's Subaru Manual indicates lifters are serviced with the heads in place, there is no reason to mess with the timing belt at all.

They are located out there in the breeze under the valve cover (once it is removed), very easily accessable.

Actually, in 120K miles & 15 years it would not be THAT unusual that a lifter might go bad or get a piece of debris stuck in it. These things do happen, even to a Subaru. When you get this straightened out you will, hopefully, have many more years and miles to look forward to...

It was very wise of you to have the cat & tranny looked at before you decided to keep the car and invest in the extensive PM regimen. I would advise having the automatic tranny serviced every 15-20K miles: there is also a factory external AT filter kit that you can have installed for additional filtering if your car does not already have it. Kit is about $20 or so...

Good luck, keep us advised.

Cheers!

 

[C4Dave]

If MOA is what they put in, it is an oil "fortifier". The website made no claims about cleaning up sludge, just preventing it in the first place.

 

[bulwnkl]

quote:

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...The ticking is, as opined above, most probably a lifter sticking (for whatever reason) and it MAY be related to the flush but almost certainly is not related to the 15W-50 oil use...

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I agree completely.

quote:

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...MY review of the Chilton's Subaru Manual indicates lifters are serviced with the heads in place, there is no reason to mess with the timing belt at all...

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Hopefully the 4-cyl in the Legacy is like that. My ER27 you have to pull the cam carrier, which requires removal of the timing belt. It will also almost certainly result in an oil leak between the head and cam carrier if the shop isn't accustomed to Subarus.

 

[sprintman]

Pegg - I have an 2000 Outback 2.5. I'd suggest Auto-Rx for 1500-2000 miles then run dino rinse oil. You may beed to do a 2nd clean as well. then use your oil of choice. Good luck...steve

 

[Pegg]

Update: I talked with the guy who actually did the oil change on my car at the Car Doctor today. The oil level is slightly above the full mark and I wanted to know if that would damage the seals and I also wanted to know about the MOA - if it should come out. He told me he believes the flush and futher cleaning by Mobile 1 has removed the varnish and that's what is causing the lifter to tick. He said before he does anything else to the car I should drive it up I 40 at 60-70 miles an hour and see if that makes a difference. I've only driven it to and from work about 6 miles one way with lots of stop lights. The ticking doesn't seem to be any worse, but no better. I can't hear it when I'm inside the car even with the radio off unless I open the window. I begin to hope it's just "gone away", but when I open the door, it's still there. You have all been so good to share your time and knowledge with me so one more question - should I take off up I 40 and really run the car or do I risk futher damage. With my work schedule it'll be next week before I can get to another mechanic and I've really been driving the car very protectively since this started not wanting to cause futher damage.
Thanks,
Pegg

 

[DoubleDee]

I have dealt with this situation twice in two different vehicles. The fist was a Mazda 626 with all four lifters "ticking". I added a product called Seafaom, and listened as one by one they stopped ticking as soon as the product was poured in.(no bashing please) The second is my 96 Blazer,though a slightly different situation, the noise has gone away from changing to a 5w-30 Mobile 1 versus a 10W-30 Mobil 1. I would try a few more oil changes before having the engine taken apart. You now have a basic understanding of oil and the proper rating for your Subaru, but you don't have a mechanic you can trust. I have used Auto RX and it is a very good product. But in your situation, I think you will find that adding the Seafoam is a little easier. I would recommend changing oil and filter again, dino or Mobil 1, put in the Seafoam, see what the results are, and change oil again in a few thousand miles

 

[bulwnkl]

Okay, I'll just post one more time. IMHO, you don't need to do anything about this if you don't want to. Tons of Subies run innumerable miles with a little lifter tick.

Another place you might search for input (or even ask if you'd like) is on the Ultimate Subaru Message Board at USMB.net

There's lots of traffic there and TONS of information. It doesn't seem like there's too much flaming, either.

Best of luck!

 

[C4Dave]

If you can't hear the ticking while inside the car with the radio off, it isn't that bad. Drive for a while and see if it improves. Seafoam is a good product, but it acts more as a fast flush. I think you have already had enough of that. Just drive for a while with your current oil fill and let us know what happens.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Anybody think it may be a cam bearing either spun or oil hole partially blocked...maybe by the original flush? Car may have had a light lifter tick previously that only happened at cold starts but now actually has a blockage/partial blockage due to flush? Looking for any metal shavings in the oil pan is a good idea to do quickly after the noise starts but with a couple of recent oil changes any possible "original telltale evidence" may have already been drained out and lost...
Just offering this as a possibility, hope it helps.

 

[Gary Allan]

I think that Pegg has got a bunch of excellent responses here ..but that it has gotten to information overload.

I think that this is a typical lifter tick. Although the onset was after a flush ..it didn't (if I read correctly) occur until the temperature dropped (as much or as little as in can in SE NC). This points to the heavier oil as being the root cause. Now many will counter that this wasn't remedied by the replacement of the oil with a lighter weight ..but I've had this occur myself where a lifter tick lingered after the oil had been swapped out for lighter stuff (I keep having visions of a relief valve forced partially open due to the heavy weight oil in a sludged or scored bore and not reseating completely after the swap and the lighter oil leaking past it)

I'd like to see Pegg do the over 100k Auto-Rx cleaning as any menchanical remedy will be far more expensive and may in fact be unnecessary. Through its use she will probably experience a few more ticks in the process ..which may add to the anxiety that is already being felt ..but I would think that it would be worth it.


As 427ZO6 pointed out, we are "remote viewing" ...hence any advice must also be heavily qualified as opinion based on less then totally reliable information.

 

[Norm Olt]

If you have sufficient oil pressure running the car at freeway speeds should not hurt anything. If your car only gets 6 mile in town driving with lots of stoplights it really is not ever getting truly warmed up. Cars NEED to be fully warmed up on a regular basis to heat the oil enough to give any moisture in the system a chance to evaporate

One last thought: the POWER STEERING PUMPS in a lot of Subaru products have been known to make a clicking sound as they get older...

Worth checking out as a possible source of the noise. It is often hard to distinguish the two.
Removing the PS belt for a minute might help in this diagnostic.

Also "Tons of Subies run innumerable miles with a little lifter tick" is OH!, so true!

Cheers!

 

[brian fix]

After talking to a friend of mine ,a mech. he thought depending on your engine,you may have a broken spring in your valve train,, have your plugs pulled and conpaired to each other,if one is more black/darker than the others..this will be the cause,then you need a valve job ,and all is,a compression test will also be inorder,,please find a compentent mechanic..BL