Not that it’s an excuse or a cause here, but what a mess of an airport - I gladly haven’t flown there in about 10 years. Bizarre that 31R is decommissioned, but it’s still labeled as BOTH 31R on the chart AND Taxiway H. Plus there’s a 31C when 31R doesn’t even exist? So 31C should be designated 31R.
Near Miss At Chicago Midway
- Thread starter billt460
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That is correct - they were taxiing on a runway - thus no hold short lines.
And?
The absence of hold short lines doesn't absolve them of compliance with a clearance - to HOLD SHORT of the intersecting runway.
It doesn't absolve them of the responsibility to be heads up when nearing and crossing active runways.
You asked a question. I answered. Sorry it wasn't up to your standards...
What is the most likely disciplinary action for the pilots who crossed the active runway?
I didn't ask the question - but the answer leads the non-pilots to think that the lack of markings might change the responsibility.
It does not.
I used to take all of my students to Midway at night in a single engine airplane because I wanted them to experience controlled chaos. I only went there on nights that winds were from the NW, so we could land on 31L. When landing on 31L it's fairly easy to make taxiway kilo and we could always make taxiway yankee. If we made kilo, we would be in our own self-contained loop where we never interfered with commercial traffic. If we made yankee, there were always commercial airplanes taxiing there and I tried to stay out of their way. The controller on duty really appreciated when we turned off on kilo. It was routine to be asked if I was a student pilot and/or if I was familiar with MDW and concurrent parallel runway operations. They really didn't want inexperienced pilots participating. When the controller saw that I understood how to not be annoying and didn't line up on the wrong runway, they didn't care if we stayed for an hour practicing landings with all the distractions such as commercial airplanes passing us as they approached runway 31C. It taught the student pilots that they wanted to take operating at a busy airport very seriously. Every single student told me they would never go there as a pilot unless there was some dire need to do so. Good choice.
You are correct - you did not ask the question. Another poster did, and I answered with my response. My apologies for the confusion.
Regardless, my intent was only to respond with a direct factual answer to a question that had been raised. Your response felt like I had not answered the question posed...
You are correct that does not change the pilots responsibility to follow the directions that ground had issued to them.
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Thanks.
At first I thought it was a business jet but got confused with the "Flex Jet" call sign.
Yeah, I heard Juan mentioning the blocked transmission to Flex Jet and would be surprised if they weren't telling SW to pull up and GA like you point out.
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Lots of flight decks with both having a combined experience of 15,000 hours on medium sized narrow body.
So much movement, pilots bid bigger planes when they can or upgrade CA faster than before.
Can’t confirm but someone said they have solid bars that divide 31C from the 4/22s for this reason. Doesn’t look like normal taxiway hold shorts though. FWIW, they routinely taxi from the GA ramp via 4R in this configuration. It de-conflicts taxiway Y with the terminal ramp so I’ve been told.
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A breakdown of the radio taxi instructions.
My parents told me to look both ways before crossing the street, then look again carefully. The very same thing applies here. More than that, it is a written requirement that pilots be familiar with the airport. Modern jets have great moving map airport diagrams too.
The reason I asked the question, is that at some airports it is common to taxi on a runway AND have that runway have normal hold short markings. At other airports those hold short lines are simply not there. There could be a line, or not. The inconsistency is known to ground controllers at airports without hold short lines on runways used as taxiways. They see pilots make this mistake regularly.
The reason I asked the question, is that at some airports it is common to taxi on a runway AND have that runway have normal hold short markings. At other airports those hold short lines are simply not there. There could be a line, or not. The inconsistency is known to ground controllers at airports without hold short lines on runways used as taxiways. They see pilots make this mistake regularly.
What level of pilots are we talking about? I could see a private pilot in 172 making a mistake - taxiing on a runway, and expecting to see a line. A small airport, inexperienced pilot type situation.
But this is a major commercial airport, and the aircraft in question is a commercial aircraft, and at least one of those pilots had an ATP.
In other words, I could understand amateur performance out of an amateur, but this was an ostensibly professional crew displaying amateur performance, and it almost led to a major tragedy and loss of life.
I come from the corporate world. As I've mentioned before, time builders, owner-pilots and airline rejects do exist. It is my opinion that the US air carriers do a very good job. With well refined and uniform training. The same really can't be said for large portions of General Aviation.
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The satellite view (no date) does not show a hold short line on 4L for 13C-31C, but the pictures in the preliminary report show a hold short line and 13C-31C runway signs. Simply no excuse for missing the hold short and the signs. I'll bet the briefing was inadequate and no airport diagram available while taxiing.
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Runway/taxiway incursions are a big safety issue and happen too often.
Some airports are more complicated but manage the threat accordingly.
Some airports are more complicated but manage the threat accordingly.
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I would be very surprised if they don’t have the airport taxi diagram on a company issued iPad that allows them to see where they are while taxiing.
Below is the taxi chart showing Westjet on taxiway Hotel holding short of runway 23 at Toronto.
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Juan Browne talking about the report.
