Navy F/A-18s shot down in friendly-fire incident

Ward Carroll is a USNA grad and flew on F-14’s. He has a popular YouTube aviation channel and here interviews retired Hornet pilot Mark Miller, CPT USN Retired.

They discuss the likely [unofficial] sequence of events. Plenty of jargon, mostly described. Wasn’t aware the USN uses tanker-configured planes like this. They make the point the crew would not have survived the impact so ejecting saved their lives. The second aircraft had their active countermeasures turned off, procedure for landing. They use an advanced IFF system in hostile theaters.

They answer questions from followers. They also make the point that some details of the investigation will be classified and not released to the public. They also announce USS Gettysburg has been relieved as Air Warfare Commander. So Gettysburg CO seems likely to get booted.



CENTCOM Commander is General Mike Kurilla, USA.


I'm still not sure that I buy that they couldn't have survived long enough to eject. Yeah an SM-2 is a big missile with a big warhead. But many have noted that it has a blast fragmentation warhead and a proximity sensor. It gets close enough and explodes into an expanding ball of fragments. Apparently modern fragments might even be incendiary, like little artillery shells. This is kind of old as I believe the US Navy is only using vertical launch tubes now. But this shows tests where the targets aren't immediately obliterated. The second video (apparently can't direct link) is of an SM-2 intercepting a missile.





But yeah the US Navy doesn't have any dedicated tankers any more, although they're supposedly going to operate the MQ-25 Stingray. I think they call what they do now as buddy refueling. And there's been criticism that it adds hours to fighter/attack aircraft.
 
Is this a career-ending f.-up? I keep thinking that the guys who run the heavy ordinance get the big glory when everything goes according to plan, but they get hung out to dry when the military needs an "explanation."


Note: I don't know anything. This is a question, not a comment.
 
Is this a career-ending f.-up? I keep thinking that the guys who run the heavy ordinance get the big glory when everything goes according to plan, but they get hung out to dry when the military needs an "explanation."


Note: I don't know anything. This is a question, not a comment.

You can look at what happened with the USS Vincennes incident, where a civilian jet from Iran was downed. Apparently the Captain wasn't immediately relieved of command and even had a new assignment after his scheduled cruise was over. But he was passed over for promotion.
 
I'm still not sure that I buy that they couldn't have survived long enough to eject. Yeah an SM-2 is a big missile with a big warhead. But many have noted that it has a blast fragmentation warhead and a proximity sensor. It gets close enough and explodes into an expanding ball of fragments. Apparently modern fragments might even be incendiary, like little artillery shells. This is kind of old as I believe the US Navy is only using vertical launch tubes now. But this shows tests where the targets aren't immediately obliterated. The second video (apparently can't direct link) is of an SM-2 intercepting a missile.





But yeah the US Navy doesn't have any dedicated tankers any more, although they're supposedly going to operate the MQ-25 Stingray. I think they call what they do now as buddy refueling. And there's been criticism that it adds hours to fighter/attack aircraft.

They would not have survived an SM-2 detonation. It doesn’t just kill the airplane - it kills the crew.

140# blast frag warhead is big. It’s hundreds of times more powerful than a hand grenade, and it’s exploding a few meters away.

Every part of their bodies would have been penetrated by fragments.

Absolutely not survivable.
 
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You can look at what happened with the USS Vincennes incident, where a civilian jet from Iran was downed. Apparently the Captain wasn't immediately relieved of command and even had a new assignment after his scheduled cruise was over. But he was passed over for promotion.
This CO will not be treated so gently. I promise.
 
Is this a career-ending f.-up? I keep thinking that the guys who run the heavy ordinance get the big glory when everything goes according to plan, but they get hung out to dry when the military needs an "explanation."


Note: I don't know anything. This is a question, not a comment.
Yes. There will be several careers that will be ended as a result of the errors made in this event.

CO of Gettysburg will be among them.
 
Ward Carroll is a USNA grad and flew on F-14’s. He has a popular YouTube aviation channel and here interviews retired Hornet pilot Mark Miller, CPT USN Retired.

They discuss the likely [unofficial] sequence of events. Plenty of jargon, mostly described. Wasn’t aware the USN uses tanker-configured planes like this. They make the point the crew would not have survived the impact so ejecting saved their lives. The second aircraft had their active countermeasures turned off, procedure for landing. They use an advanced IFF system in hostile theaters.

They answer questions from followers. They also make the point that some details of the investigation will be classified and not released to the public. They also announce USS Gettysburg has been relieved as Air Warfare Commander. So Gettysburg CO seems likely to get booted.



CENTCOM Commander is General Mike Kurilla, USA.

An old friend.
 
I'm still not sure that I buy that they couldn't have survived long enough to eject. Yeah an SM-2 is a big missile with a big warhead. But many have noted that it has a blast fragmentation warhead and a proximity sensor. It gets close enough and explodes into an expanding ball of fragments. Apparently modern fragments might even be incendiary, like little artillery shells. This is kind of old as I believe the US Navy is only using vertical launch tubes now. But this shows tests where the targets aren't immediately obliterated. The second video (apparently can't direct link) is of an SM-2 intercepting a missile.

The SM-2 has the TNT equivalent closer to a 500 pound Mk82 than a aim-9l sidewinder. (Something like 190pounds of TNT for a 500 pounder vs 9 pounds for a sidewinder.
 
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I'm still not sure ...
Exactly, you're not sure and neither was the aircrew. Mooch clearly said "If you're in doubt, there is no doubt". They made the right call and lived.

If you've ever seen a VLS SM2 launch, they are way faster than they seem on these videos.
 
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Exactly, you're not sure and neither was the aircrew. Mooch clearly said "If you're in doubt, there is no doubt". They made the right call and lived.

If you've ever seen a VLS SM2 launch, they are way faster that they seem on these videos.
I agree. It was a good call. Low, slow, ECM and expendables turned off, they had no options. No means by which to evade the missile. Staying with the jet would have meant their death. I am not over-stating this for drama. In their circumstances, the ejection was a good call, the only call, really.
 
Exactly, you're not sure and neither was the aircrew. Mooch clearly said "If you're in doubt, there is no doubt". They made the right call and lived.

If you've ever seen a VLS SM2 launch, they are way faster that they seem on these videos.

There have been some headscratchers. Like the F-35B pilot who bailed when multiple systems failed. I've heard a lot of criticism over the punishment that was premised on there being pilot error where they claimed he could have attempted to stay with the plane.

But yeah - I totally understand now that the plane was going down, with or without the crew.
 
I agree. It was a good call. Low, slow, ECM and expendables turned off, they had no options. No means by which to evade the missile. Staying with the jet would have meant their death. I am not over-stating this for drama. In their circumstances, the ejection was a good call, the only call, really.
To me it seems incredible to make that decision that quick to eject. The thought process had to be so fast. I wonder how much time went by from realizing being targeted to ejection ?
 
To me it seems incredible to make that decision that quick to eject. The thought process had to be so fast. I wonder how much time went by from realizing being targeted to ejection ?
From accounts I’ve read, it was a one second conversation…
 
Give it a year. There will be a sequence of events that will lead to this.
When Putin says: we will deploy tactical nuclear weapons because of XYZ, this is what I am worried about. It is not a policy I am worried about, but a mistake by ordinary people who are prone to mistakes.
 
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