"Mustang"Mach-E Efficiency

[UncleDave]

The

To the Y and Id4 perhaps, but model 3 was included in the text I cited.

The thing with 100kWh or 75kWh usable is I dont know how that is defined, and each vendor may change that slightly by controls.

I think that MPGe is essentially kWh/100mi and then correlated to electrons by saying that there is some amount of Wh/gallon of gasoline. But the exact correlation, since the efficiency of conversion from a gallon of gas to a useable Wh of electricity is variable.

Id prefer, to compare apples to apples, without cheating, to just see the straightup Wh/mile at low speed and high speed drive cycles. Noted that the graphic you show gives those numbers, but the question remains of why are they different?

The 3 an Y share the same drivetrain and battery so it gets thrown down by journalists as the bench mark for what the drivetrain is capable of.

I didnt mention MPGE (and I dont care about it) at all because I didn't want to get bogged down with it, or care how it compares to an ICE car.

KWH per 100 miles is a better standard to judge electric vs electric.

When you speak of differences in the chart - which differences are you talking about? The results?

 

[wpod]

Electric cars lack the engine noise. Go to the drags and watch a top fuel car do the 1000 ft. Noise flames vibrations getting to view the engine rebuild . An electric vehicle? Seems to lack the good stuff.

 

[JHZR2]

The


The 3 an Y share the same drivetrain and battery so it gets thrown down by journalists as the bench mark for what the drivetrain is capable of.

I didnt mention MPGE (and I dont care about it) at all because I didn't want to get bogged down with it, or care how it compares to an ICE car.

KWH per 100 miles is a better standard to judge electric vs electric.

When you speak of differences in the chart - which differences are you talking about? The results?

We dont compare the same engine in different vehicle types, do we?
Thats why the EPA has vehicle size classes...

I was wrapping head around the numbers provided. How we calculate MPGe vs kWh/100 miles (I think we agree on that)... It seems like kWh/100 mi is a "pure" number.

The question remains why is tesla more efficient. What knobs are being turned to achieve it, and what are the ramifications?

 

[JHZR2]

EV

yup... Forgot... done...

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Especially where electricity is plentiful and low priced.

Lets plug the change agent of "cause and effect" into that.

What will happen to that electricity (in terms of cost and availability) when all those loads hit those areas where the generation and distribution systems are required to carry these new loads that they were never originally designed to?

 

[wpod]

Lets plug the change agent of "cause and effect" into that.

What will happen to that electricity (in terms of cost and availability) when all those loads hit those areas where the generation and distribution systems are required to carry these new loads that they were never originally designed to?

I am not looking that far forward !!

 

[UncleDave]

We dont compare the same engine in different vehicle types, do we?
Thats why the EPA has vehicle size classes...

I was wrapping head around the numbers provided. How we calculate MPGe vs kWh/100 miles (I think we agree on that)... It seems like kWh/100 mi is a "pure" number.

The question remains why is tesla more efficient. What knobs are being turned to achieve it, and what are the ramifications?

I'm not the journalist so I cant speak for them, but I suspect when comparing the same engine and drivetrain to another vehicle one can see clearly see the weight and aero penalty that may be involved.

MPGe is a hotly debated construct to compare ICE to BEV and not nearly as relevant in an BEV to BEV discussion.

I would agree that using the 100KWH per 100 mile metric is much purer.

The are numerous things that make it more efficient, motors, inverters, controllers, unified vs distributed control all add a tiny bit that adds up.

Sandy Munro does a great job of breaking down where the leadership is.

On top of efficiency there is assembly ease and with the back half of the car and soon to be the front basically one massive piece Tesla can build it faster cheaper AND better.

Ford said this vehicle would originally have 375 Miles of range, but then again we've seen this happen a bunch when the rubber meets the road.

A big question is why after 12 years haven't the other guys caught up?
Listening to guys like Bob lutz telling everyone Tesla had no advantages, and others bloviating about how it was a mere flick of a switch away from taking the BEV market from Tesla ...well it isn't going to be that easy,

How/why is it that Ford finds themselves having to sell a 100KWH pack to equal Teslas 75?
If MSRP is equal Ford cannot come close to the profit tesla has just on the basis of the battery alone.
The only way for them to compete is to subsidize the BEV lineup using profit from somewhere else (f150 anyone)
As a shareholder of stock and an unwilling investor what has ford been doing with the 1.6B remaining of loans?

 

[JeffKeryk]

Tesla's advantage is, it is a pure play EV company.
The evidence is evident.
And now they have market cap clout like nobody else.

 

[blingo]

Shouldn't be that difficult to integrate a heat pump into a face lifted Mach-E, upgrades of thermal management in general etc.
No pure play and market cap. necessary in ever more survival of many fittest and freshest and narrativest for now Some dedication here and a little openness there is about all on the go – plus your kWh counting and sufficient prices for electricity. Tin Lizzy probably never kept up with the Bentley Boys around Le Mans...

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

I think that MPGe is essentially kWh/100mi and then correlated to electrons by saying that there is some amount of Wh/gallon of gasoline. But the exact correlation, since the efficiency of conversion from a gallon of gas to a useable Wh of electricity is variable.

EXACTLY

 

[Trav]

I have no idea why Ford wanted to call this a Mustang. It is going into the history books next to the Pontiac Aztek, IMO, though hopefully they learn something about EVs.

Thing is the Aztek is better looking, something I never thought possible.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

MPGe may not be particular meaningful when comparing an ICE engine to a BEV, but what it IS useful for is comparing 2 BEV's

Having no dog in this fight and totally without any bias whatsoever ( except for the truth and an equal set of scales regardless of the metric)

That's only partially true.

Yes it clearly is a standardized comparison between BEV 1 & 2 with a common scale ( maybe a thousand foot view) but its too vague for more specific comparisons.

For example this metric combines everything from payload, drag, powertrain and all that into a neat number- that's good.

If you want to drill down- not so good.

Then it biases in favor of smaller more aerodynamic models.

It has a legitimate purpose but only within certain criteria.

 

[4WD]

Thing is the Aztek is better looking, something I never thought possible.

Know a woman who drove an Aztek for 13 years … used to ask her if she could park next door.
She really had no issues with the car, but man … the Edsel looked better

 

[UncleDave]

Having no dog in this fight and totally without any bias whatsoever ( except for the truth and an equal set of scales regardless of the metric)

That's only partially true.

Yes it clearly is a standardized comparison between BEV 1 & 2 with a common scale ( maybe a thousand foot view) but its too vague for more specific comparisons.

For example this metric combines everything from payload, drag, powertrain and all that into a neat number- that's good.

If you want to drill down- not so good.

Then it biases in favor of smaller more aerodynamic models.

It has a legitimate purpose but only within certain criteria.

I would agree that any "sticker" efficiency spec is always a starting point, and can always be skewed by comparing unlike models.

 

[UncleDave]

Know a woman who drove an Aztek for 13 years … used to ask her if she could park next door.
She really had no issues with the car, but man … the Edsel looked better

Dude...we laugh about this in my house all the time.

Prior to me my wife had an aztec with the whole camping kit and everything - she loved it and didnt have a single mechanical problem with it, as a single mom about all she could afford to do was take the kids camping.

I joke with her all the time about how it was time that someone came out with a vehicle with the sensibilities of a 16nth century warrior.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

I would agree that any "sticker" efficiency spec is always a starting point, and can always be skewed by comparing unlike models.

I would throw this out too ( see where it lands)- not just models but various assemblies and conditions

A lot of it depends specifically on what "efficiency" the person is wanting to know if this "published efficiency" is of any use or value)

For examples: Efficiency of ( or between)…..

amps to motor HP ( efficiency at the motor)

Power lost at transmission PTO ( efficiency of the power train)

Power loss at the rear wheel ( efficiency of the drive train and tires against a static load)

Power loss at velocity ( all road forces)

Each one of those is separate and unequal.

 

[UncleDave]

I would throw this out too ( see where it lands)- not just models but various assemblies and conditions

A lot of it depends specifically on what "efficiency" the person is wanting to know if this "published efficiency" is of any use or value)

For examples: Efficiency of ( or between)…..

amps to motor HP ( efficiency at the motor)

Power lost at transmission PTO ( efficiency of the power train)

Power loss at the rear wheel ( efficiency of the drive train and tires against a static load)

Power loss at velocity ( all road forces)

Each one of those is separate and unequal.

me..Id like to know all of that, and more..standby drain down losses, how much a seat heater "costs" -heater, ac effect, what happens when I open a window or sunroof -what 5 degree in each direction does -I could keep going a long time with what Id like to know.

I'm both a gearhead AND a geek.

There will never be a single sticker that fully pleases a guy like me.

All that said - knowing how many KWH per 100 miles is a very useful benchmark to begin a comparison with, and if vehicles are within a few % of each other I can glean useful info from that. When deltas start to rise above 10-15-20% it speaks to more meaningful differences between two vehicles in the same segment.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

All that said - knowing how many KWH per 100 miles is a very useful benchmark to begin a comparison with, and if vehicles are within a few % of each other I can glean useful info from that.

Yes its a very good starting point, I concur.

But based on what I see and read, this is basically limited to urban road riders. That's not the work envelope any EV I would ever entertain would live in.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

me..Id like to know all of that, and more..standby drain down losses, how much a seat heater "costs" -heater, ac effect, what happens when I open a window or sunroof -what 5 degree in each direction does -I could keep going a long time with what Id like to know.

I split this out for its own commentary.

With a proper baseline of consumption all of that information should either be available upfront or very easy to custom calculate. (I have had to do this with load plans before on electromechanical set ups. None of this is difficult or unreasonable to want)

What gets me is people who argue numbers in a linear fashion that either don't ( or refuse to) understand what those numbers mean or truly represent. They argue "efficiency" but don specifically define which and what ( just lump them all together) and that convolutes the entire point.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I split this out for its own commentary.

With a proper baseline of consumption all of that information should either be available upfront or very easy to custom calculate. (I have had to do this with load plans before on electromechanical set ups. None of this is difficult or unreasonable to want)

What gets me is people who argue numbers in a linear fashion that either don't ( or refuse to) understand what those numbers mean or truly represent. They argue "efficiency" but don specifically define which and what ( just lump them all together) and that convolutes the entire point.

The more discrete the data points, the better the understanding. Absolutely agree.
Not to mention critical in problem solving and improving overall performance...
Having said that, one could argue the total package end result is what matters.