The EPA measurements are taken from a dyno run vs a mfgr. claim.
"Mustang"Mach-E Efficiency
- Thread starter UncleDave
- Start date
The EPA measurements are taken from a dyno run vs a mfgr. claim.
Yes.
The MSRP thats been touted will be the "standard range" version vs whats being tested now.
Now Fords in a bind. They were able to wiggle around making claims and not being specific about battery size vs price and specs- until now.
Now they have to figure out what you get with base MSRP.
Now they have to either cap the extended MSRP at teslas price, or try to compete asymmetrically.
No surprise smaller packs are lighter and instantly improve MPGe or kWh/100mi - but at the detriment of range and at times charging speed and performance.
There is a reason so far only tesla has full car OTA capability - unified control .
Every other car has several computers in it controlling various subsystems, engine, brakes, entertainment, syncing them all can really never happen.
Tesla controls the whole car with a single computer. This is part of what the Audi guy that resigned meant when he says "we were all sleeping. "
They can reduce wiring and component cost and build the car more profitably this way.
I don't think the EPA does much testing. The manufacturers are required to provide accurate information.
Quote from the EPA: Manufacturers test their own vehicles—usually pre-production prototypes—and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 15%–20% of them through their own tests at the National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory.
Tesla famously uses different formulas than Porsche.
Engineering explained goes through the formulas it worth a watch.
For Ice vehicle they take manufacturers claims, for EV's and plug in hybrids they do " confirmatory testing ".
- 3. EPA Confirmatory testing - Currently, EPA performs confirmatory testing on all new light-duty electric vehicles and plug-in hybrid vehicles at EPA's emission testing laboratory in Ann Arbor Michigan. If the manufacturer makes changes to an EV or PHEV that was previously tested at EPA, EPA will decide on a case- by-case basis whether additional EPA confirmatory testing is needed.
Alex on Autos just did a head-to-head type range test between a Model Y Dual Motor LR with a 326 mile rating and a Mach-e Dual Motor ER with a 270 mile rating
Final numbers were an estimated real world range of 234 miles for the Model Y and 268 miles for the Mach-e.
Final numbers were an estimated real world range of 234 miles for the Model Y and 268 miles for the Mach-e.
Estimates aren't typically very accurate and are somewhat lazy reporting these days when others run the battery fully down. If you watch a variety of "run till it stops" videos you will find that many UI's simply have ongoing downward revision.
How they stop is important to know do they cut power gracefully or slam down at X miles.
Im happy that Ford seems to be somewhat competitive if not from a M/KWH perspective at least the battery is big enough to give it some legs.
The most relevant and telling tests (to me) are the- time to distance - tests that require multiple charge points like Bjorn Nylands 1000KM test. Ill never expend a Bev's city range in a day so that number is almost irrelevant to me, its the road trip range and time to destination Im looking to match my ice vehicles.
This type of test accounts for steady state freeway driving drag at controlled speeds and includes the time to charge at multiple chargers.
How they stop is important to know do they cut power gracefully or slam down at X miles.
Im happy that Ford seems to be somewhat competitive if not from a M/KWH perspective at least the battery is big enough to give it some legs.
The most relevant and telling tests (to me) are the- time to distance - tests that require multiple charge points like Bjorn Nylands 1000KM test. Ill never expend a Bev's city range in a day so that number is almost irrelevant to me, its the road trip range and time to destination Im looking to match my ice vehicles.
This type of test accounts for steady state freeway driving drag at controlled speeds and includes the time to charge at multiple chargers.
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Lets hope there is profit in it for Ford. Id like for them to pay us back.
I'm not sure its universally true that " no one cares about MPG" but setting that aside
Miles per KWH matters because it isn't nearly as easy to charge as it is to fill on a road trip.
Uncle, pay who back for what?
No. Landfill anyone?
Us, well " the government" for the 6B government loan they took out in 09.
Ford took $6B government loan in 2009 — and debt still haunts company
Ford isn't alone in the struggle, but it entered 2020 reporting a much smaller-than-expected profit than its competitors.
www.freep.com
Documents filed by Ford show the company owes payments of $591 million in 2020, $591 million in 2021 and $289 million in 2022.
They've been doing well so far, but f150's and SUV's are profitable. EV's... much thinner margins.
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Checked out a Mach-E yesterday. It's big, like American Car big. I believe it's bigger than the Tesla Model Y I recently drove. The Mach-E is also nearly 4900 pounds (with a full charge hahahahah) and is hundreds of pounds heavier than the Model Y.
The competitive version with AWD and the big battery seems to be $60K. However it seems to be still eligible for the $7500 federal tax rebate/credit.
The competitive version with AWD and the big battery seems to be $60K. However it seems to be still eligible for the $7500 federal tax rebate/credit.
I wonder if dealers will discount them? Probably depends on demand, I imagine.
Might end up being a super buy!
While Teslas are not discounted, prices change from time to time.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Still lighter than the e-tron, lol.
So far they've been marking them up as franchises margins are likely thin (like VW ID line is less than half the margin of the ICE line)
I'm interested in this car, but want to see some higher mileage profiles and get a better understanding of cell degradation.
In towner "within the ring" it'd be a pretty nice rig, quieter than the Tesla, approaching the etron but still a step down - more "regular guy nice"
The problem I have with this car is door to door time on a long trip.
Its steady state 75 mp/kwh kills it, this is being masked by " mixed " in town highway testers.
Its 100KWH charging power down on the Teslas and Audis and probably 800V hyundais making the road trip stops longer where the strategy is to arrive on the bottom 1/4 or less of the charge and zip out 15-20 minute stops. This is near perfect for me resulting in a similar trip profile than an ice vehicle
Right now I wouldnt buy a tesla till the 4680's ship either so this is still a spectators game for me.
Lexus is going up for sale this weekend. Ill miss the old gal.
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The pouch cells are liquid cooled. So that may help. But pouch cells don't seem (at least to me) to be as good as 2170 Tesla cells. "It seems to me" there are very few 2170 cell failures and a large number of pouch cell failures. From the Chevy Bolt to the Porsche Taycan. I'm not sure who tracks this. Maybe I should.
Furthermore, the pouch cells are more seriously limited in capacity in an attempt at maximizing lifespan. Often more than 10%.
Ford has a superior dealer network, and is more likely to provide real warranty service and recall support. Tesla may build a better battery pack and have better motors, but Tesla's service is.... And they won't recall anything.
I'd be comfortable expecting Ford to cover a failed battery pack under warranty. And, yes, those cells are going to swell. We've seen this for years now.
Furthermore, the pouch cells are more seriously limited in capacity in an attempt at maximizing lifespan. Often more than 10%.
Ford has a superior dealer network, and is more likely to provide real warranty service and recall support. Tesla may build a better battery pack and have better motors, but Tesla's service is.... And they won't recall anything.
I'd be comfortable expecting Ford to cover a failed battery pack under warranty. And, yes, those cells are going to swell. We've seen this for years now.
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