Multi-weight oil gets thicker or thinner?

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I have a basic question I want to try and clear up really quick since I can't seem to find any authoritative source that explains this one way or the other (just a bunch of blog posts that all disagree).

Normal multi-weight oils work because they have added chemicals in them that modify their viscosity with temperature. Which direction does this work? A lot of people say the chemicals make the oil get thicker as it heats up, whereas a lot of other people say it instead prevents it from thinning out the way a normal oil would.

For example, in a generic 10w-30, are these numbers absolute (the oil physically thickens from a 10 weight into a 30 weight), or are they relative to a straight-weight's properties (at "30" the oil is still physically thinner than it was at "10", it just thinned out to the equivalent of where a straight 30 would have been at that temp)

Or, for that matter, is it a combination of the two with different manufacturers doing different things?
 
The first number and the second number have absolutely no correlation with each other. A 0w30 or 5w30 just won't be as thick when really cold as a 10w30.

The oil basically thins out as it gets hotter, think of maple syrup, if you put it in the fridge, it will get really thick. But if you poured a bottle of maple syrup into a frying pan and heated it on the stove, it will get really runny and easy to flow.
 
A viscosity comparison I see all the time that is completely false is that for example a 5W50 and mono grade 50 are the exact same viscosity once at operating temp. This is completely false. Use both and drain hot. The 5W50 is like water compared to a mono grade 50.
 
I can't find either on line right now but I remember reading that conventional and synthetic goes in opposite directions.

One gets thinner as it warms and the other gets thicker as it cools. Something to do with the additives looking like a coil that opens up as temperature changes
 
Originally Posted By: Quartz
I have a basic question I want to try and clear up really quick

(at "30" the oil is still physically thinner than it was at "10", it just thinned out to the equivalent of where a straight 30 would have been at that temp)


This
 
IIRC VI's are added to conventional to make it thinner when cold; and VI's are added to snythetic to make them thicker at hot. [Thicker being a relative term--viscosity goes down, but not at the same rate as a monoweight.] I think that's what the 101 article on this site says.

Not sure if this link has what you are after (I glanced through):
http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

The winter rating is not the cold weight of the oil. Many pages indicate that, and it'd be straightforward if true; but it seems that xW means something other than the viscosity we look at when hot. Winter rating has more to do with pumpability.
http://www.uniteasy.com/en/unitsDict/sae_viscosity_grade.htm
 
A 30 and a 0/5w30 should have the approximately the same viscosity at full operating temperature of 200 F but, the 5w30 will have a lower viscosity at colder temperatures than a 30.
 
Originally Posted By: supton
IIRC VI's are added to conventional to make it thinner when cold; and VI's are added to snythetic to make them thicker at hot. [Thicker being a relative term--viscosity goes down, but not at the same rate as a monoweight.] I think that's what the 101 article on this site says.

Not sure if this link has what you are after (I glanced through):
http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

The winter rating is not the cold weight of the oil. Many pages indicate that, and it'd be straightforward if true; but it seems that xW means something other than the viscosity we look at when hot. Winter rating has more to do with pumpability.
http://www.uniteasy.com/en/unitsDict/sae_viscosity_grade.htm
Pour point depressants keep the oil not thickening up as much and Viscisity improvers don't let the oil thin as much when heated.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
Pour point depressants keep the oil not thickening up as much and Viscisity improvers don't let the oil thin as much when heated.


Finally! I'm ashamed at how many posts it took to get here and how much misinformation was posted.

Viscosity improvers function by allowing the oil to thin less as temperatures rise. The oil doesn't become more viscous as temperature rises. Viscosity improvers are subject to being sheared. This shearing reduces the viscosity.
 
The way I understand it, a 10W-30 is the weight of a cold SAE 10 when cold and then it becomes the weight of a hot SAE 30 when hot. Without the viscosity index improvers, it would be a very thin SAE 10 when hot.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
Oil thins when heated and thickens when it cools.


This...ALL oil does this, but...

I like to thinkof it like this: a 5w30 will behave as a 5w at the lowest temps, and behave as a 30 weight at operating temperature.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
The way I understand it, a 10W-30 is the weight of a cold SAE 10 when cold and then it becomes the weight of a hot SAE 30 when hot. Without the viscosity index improvers, it would be a very thin SAE 10 when hot.


No.

A 10w-30 has the cold cranking and pumping viscosities of a 10W oil (not SAE10) but not much above those temperatures behaves like an SAE 30. 10w30 might not need VII at all.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: supton
IIRC VI's are added to conventional to make it thinner when cold; and VI's are added to snythetic to make them thicker at hot. [Thicker being a relative term--viscosity goes down, but not at the same rate as a monoweight.] I think that's what the 101 article on this site says.

Not sure if this link has what you are after (I glanced through):
http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

The winter rating is not the cold weight of the oil. Many pages indicate that, and it'd be straightforward if true; but it seems that xW means something other than the viscosity we look at when hot. Winter rating has more to do with pumpability.
http://www.uniteasy.com/en/unitsDict/sae_viscosity_grade.htm
Pour point depressants keep the oil not thickening up as much and Viscisity improvers don't let the oil thin as much when heated.
VIs look like springs, they get longer when they are heated and shorter when they are cooled, thus making the oil more stable with temp increases. PPDs are whatever can be added to motor oil to keep it from getting thicker when cooled. Oil with a lot of paraffin in it used to thicken quickly when cold. Now the refining process gets so much of the "wax" out the oils are more stable when cooled. Synthetic oil should have no wax at all because of the process used to make it and should need little or no PPDs, unknown what Group III "synthetic" needs in the way of PPDs. Probably not much.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
A viscosity comparison I see all the time that is completely false is that for example a 5W50 and mono grade 50 are the exact same viscosity once at operating temp. This is completely false. Use both and drain hot. The 5W50 is like water compared to a mono grade 50.

Yeah, this is something my mechanic pointed out and one of the reasons I decided to ask how this works. If the -50 doesn't actually represent what a straight 50 would be, what DOES it represent?
 
Originally Posted By: Quartz
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
A viscosity comparison I see all the time that is completely false is that for example a 5W50 and mono grade 50 are the exact same viscosity once at operating temp. This is completely false. Use both and drain hot. The 5W50 is like water compared to a mono grade 50.

Yeah, this is something my mechanic pointed out and one of the reasons I decided to ask how this works. If the -50 doesn't actually represent what a straight 50 would be, what DOES it represent?

It represents a range of kinematic viscosity that an oil will have at 100 deg C, according to sae j300 table.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
It represents a range of kinematic viscosity that an oil will have at 100 deg C, according to sae j300 table.

Uhh..... in english?
smile.gif
 
Has anyone posted this link yet? Scroll down to the viscosity charts.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/putting-the-simple-back-into-viscosity/

The answer to your basic question is that oil gets thinner as it heats up. The manufacturers' data sheets usually give the oil's viscosity at 40C and 100C.

Like a lot of people, I used to think the "W" number was "oil weight" like the second number. This site taught me that it is a rating of cold pumpability, not oil viscosity. "10W" is an apple, and "30" is an orange, maybe.
 
Originally Posted By: Quartz
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
It represents a range of kinematic viscosity that an oil will have at 100 deg C, according to sae j300 table.

Uhh..... in english?
smile.gif


It means both sae 50 and 5w-50 have about the same kinematic viscosity at 100 deg C.
 
Originally Posted By: Quartz
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
It represents a range of kinematic viscosity that an oil will have at 100 deg C, according to sae j300 table.

Uhh..... in english?
smile.gif



The "grades" that we know and love (well some do, I don't) evolved from trying to define physical properties that related to engine operation.

Here's a 1923 version of j300.

The viscosity measured was literally the time for a given volume of oil to flow under gravity through the apparatus. The grade names were related to this time...it also explains why they had to fix the 20s recently.

j300%201923.jpg

Go here to see how SUS convert into Cst.

If you look at the 020 and 030, it was know that some oil sources had better properties at cold temperatures than others...those two, while having the same "warm" performance, had much better pour points than others, earning a special classification.

Later, the grades were broken into Kinematic and Dynamic viscosity ranges, like the J300 table on the right. They had broken performance into two ranges, the "W", which originally DID stand for "Winter" is the performance at the extremes of the oil's ability to flow and pour, and the KV100 range, which is what the oil does at 100C.

A monograde could theoretically be any of the horizontal lines across the chart. Could (and can commonly get) an oil that is a 10W, or an SAE20, SAE30.

If it met both requirements, it could be labelled as a "multigrade", the strangest of which was 20W20, which meant that it was essentially a 20, but it also had the cold temperature performance of a 20W.

A 20W50 means that the oil meets the cold temperature performance of a 20W, but the high temperature performance of a 50.

Strategies included the use of PPD to lower the "W" rating, and Viscosity Index Improvers to improve the 100C performance.
IMG_0822.jpg


The page on the left shows a later version still in the evolution of the standard.

* The "W" now references CCS (Cold Cranking Simulator), which reflects the ability of the engine to crank with that oil in the bearings and piston skirts at that temperature.
* The "W" now references Borderline Pumping, which is the ability of the oil to flow into the pickup tube, and feed the oil pump.
* now has HTHS (High Temperature/High Shear),

The HTHS was included as it had become obvious that some of the early "multigrades", while promising engine protection in their grading, weren't protecting rings and bearings. They found that under high shear rates (like in bearings and piston skirts, cam lobes etc.) that the polymers were "stretching", or flattening out, and the viscosity in those components was reduced by 25-30% *or more).

The HTHS minimums were essentially those that were at the top of the grade lower.
30 had a minimum HTH2.9, while a 20W20 monograde would have that.
40 had a minimum of 3.7, while a monograde SAE30 would be in the 3.4-3.6 range. The 0W, 5W, and 10W 40s only had to meet 2.9, same as the 30s, reflecting what a stretch early multigrades were.

Most recent version has more changes.
j3002015.jpg



They "fixed" the 20 grade, as the original time based measurement left a massive spread of KV100 for the 20s.

They "fixed" the 0W, 5W, and 10W 40 grades to a 3.5HTHS, making them actually reflect that they are a 40.

They subdivided the 20 into some areas of 16, 12, and dropped an 8 into the high temperature classifications.

As to my statement
Quote:
The "grades" that we know and love (well some do, I don't)


If you look at the current chart, you can see that the lighter oils overlap in KV. That's just silly.

The HTHS is the number that is representative of engine protection, as they determined in the 70s and 80s, and the overlap in KVs for the lighter grades reflect the fact that they can have a number of KVs for that protection.

The 50s and 60s share the same 3.7HTHS minimum.

In Shannow's ideal world, the ratings would be changed to
xW - HTHS
 
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