I need help. If you have read some of my posts you know that I'm using conventional 30w Delo 400 in a Datsun 510 wagon. If I use a 10w-30 conventional oil am I getting a 10w oil with VII's? Life is supposed to be better because my engine likes tinner oil on startup and warm up, right. And if I use a real synthetic 10w-30 than am I getting a 30 weight oil that acts like a 10w oil when cold but is still a 30w engine oil? In moderate weather the difference in warm up performance between a conventional 10w-30 and a conventional 30w has to be very small. If not, how has my engine been surviving without turning down the crank or boring the cylinders for over a half a million miles. Is the advantage you gain in better warm up performance given back as the miles go by toward your next oil change? And as for real synthetic oil all I hear is that it reduces friction and wear but is the real advantage that you don't have to prop it up with VII's and the oil is not compromised by failing chemistry. The reduces friction part is just playing to what we guess is an advantage. In other words in moderate climate a single weight oil is a better oil and these 5w-20 oils are oils because they cover a smaller viscosity spread from cold to hot and suffer less from failing chemistry as the miles go by.
Multi-viscosity engine oil.
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Originally Posted By: BarkerMan
In other words in moderate climate a single weight oil is a better oil and these 5w-20 oils are oils because they cover a smaller viscosity spread from cold to hot and suffer less from failing chemistry as the miles go by.
So what is your question? or did that last sentance answer it?
In other words in moderate climate a single weight oil is a better oil and these 5w-20 oils are oils because they cover a smaller viscosity spread from cold to hot and suffer less from failing chemistry as the miles go by.
So what is your question? or did that last sentance answer it?
Well, I tried not to but I guess the answer is that oil lubricates better than VII's. So, get them out of your oil however you choose. If that means single weight oil or real synthetic oil then that could be the answer. Thinner is not the answer. No VII's is the answer. Oil does need additives to customize it for it's purpose but it does not need VII's.
Did anyone ever consider the possibility that "VII's" whatever they are, might be just as good or better at lubricating than the oil they are supposed to be treating?
Originally Posted By: BarkerMan
Well, I tried not to but I guess the answer is that oil lubricates better than VII's. So, get them out of your oil however you choose. If that means single weight oil or real synthetic oil then that could be the answer. Thinner is not the answer. No VII's is the answer. Oil does need additives to customize it for it's purpose but it does not need VII's.
I tend to agree. But I hope people on here realize that my avatar and most of my jabs at VI improvers are tongue-in-cheek.
VI improvers are light years ahead of what they used to be, and less is needed than used to be the case.
Well, I tried not to but I guess the answer is that oil lubricates better than VII's. So, get them out of your oil however you choose. If that means single weight oil or real synthetic oil then that could be the answer. Thinner is not the answer. No VII's is the answer. Oil does need additives to customize it for it's purpose but it does not need VII's.
I tend to agree. But I hope people on here realize that my avatar and most of my jabs at VI improvers are tongue-in-cheek.
VI improvers are light years ahead of what they used to be, and less is needed than used to be the case.
Quote:
Some VII's are esters.
Got a link to that one?
Some VII's are esters.
Got a link to that one?
Quote:
If I use a 10w-30 conventional oil am I getting a 10w oil with VII's?
Yes! It's a 10 weight base oil pumped up full of VII's to keep the bottom from falling out during hot temperatures.
If I use a 10w-30 conventional oil am I getting a 10w oil with VII's?
Yes! It's a 10 weight base oil pumped up full of VII's to keep the bottom from falling out during hot temperatures.
Top Tier MultiViscosity oils need no VI improvers. i.e. POA based oils.
Great.. now some "people" are convincing uneducated people that VII's are a big problem. WAY OVERBLOWN DUDE.
5w30 isn't going to put deposits in your engine when changed in proper intervals. You are treating VII's like the black death.
Just makes me angry how far some people are taking it.
It's like people that won't put cream in their coffee because they think they will get fat. Honestly, if they live a normal lifestyle and excersise.. no problem whatsoever. If they are lazy, well then they have problems in the FAR FAR future.
And that is being lazy, they aubviously have other issues to attend to.
Like enignes. If you don't change your oil.. well then there are other issues than the VII's. If you change your oil often enough there is no problems ahead.. like honestly. Just because some dude put 30w in his Honda and it went to 80,000 miles dosen't mean it is the next cure to all automotive problems.
Vitamin C isn't the cure for cancer. No VII's isn't the cure to automotive problems, like deposits and wear.
Two words:
Proper Maintenance
5w30 isn't going to put deposits in your engine when changed in proper intervals. You are treating VII's like the black death.
Just makes me angry how far some people are taking it.
It's like people that won't put cream in their coffee because they think they will get fat. Honestly, if they live a normal lifestyle and excersise.. no problem whatsoever. If they are lazy, well then they have problems in the FAR FAR future.
And that is being lazy, they aubviously have other issues to attend to.
Like enignes. If you don't change your oil.. well then there are other issues than the VII's. If you change your oil often enough there is no problems ahead.. like honestly. Just because some dude put 30w in his Honda and it went to 80,000 miles dosen't mean it is the next cure to all automotive problems.
Vitamin C isn't the cure for cancer. No VII's isn't the cure to automotive problems, like deposits and wear.
Two words:
Proper Maintenance
Originally Posted By: Eddie
Top Tier MultiViscosity oils need no VI improvers. i.e. POA based oils.
Not true. It is possible to build a PAO-based oil in some viscosities with no VI improvers. But it is highly doubtful that any OTC synthetic is free of VI improvers.
Top Tier MultiViscosity oils need no VI improvers. i.e. POA based oils.
Not true. It is possible to build a PAO-based oil in some viscosities with no VI improvers. But it is highly doubtful that any OTC synthetic is free of VI improvers.
Originally Posted By: 1999nick
Did anyone ever consider the possibility that "VII's" whatever they are, might be just as good or better at lubricating than the oil they are supposed to be treating?
If they were better at lubricating, then I suppose we would want an oil that is essentially all VII and little or no oil.
Esters are certainly very good at lubricating and can serve a purpose of VII in that most of Redline's Oils do not have VII added. However, esters are not technically VIIs or at least that is what I was told by one of the site experts here in another thread.
I might get on the straight weight bandwagon, but it gets a little cold around where I live and so I use 10wXX. Yeah, the VIIs don't lube, but engines survive a long time with multi-viscosity oil, so nothing to get worked up over.
If you had two oils, a 10w30 and a SAE 30 and if both are the same viscosity at 100C, then above 100C the mutigrade will be thicker. OTOH get it hot enough and the VIIs may cook and form sludgy deposits.
On balance, the straight weights are better, but for the average driver it really won't matter.
Did anyone ever consider the possibility that "VII's" whatever they are, might be just as good or better at lubricating than the oil they are supposed to be treating?
If they were better at lubricating, then I suppose we would want an oil that is essentially all VII and little or no oil.
Esters are certainly very good at lubricating and can serve a purpose of VII in that most of Redline's Oils do not have VII added. However, esters are not technically VIIs or at least that is what I was told by one of the site experts here in another thread.
I might get on the straight weight bandwagon, but it gets a little cold around where I live and so I use 10wXX. Yeah, the VIIs don't lube, but engines survive a long time with multi-viscosity oil, so nothing to get worked up over.
If you had two oils, a 10w30 and a SAE 30 and if both are the same viscosity at 100C, then above 100C the mutigrade will be thicker. OTOH get it hot enough and the VIIs may cook and form sludgy deposits.
On balance, the straight weights are better, but for the average driver it really won't matter.
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
If you had two oils, a 10w30 and a SAE 30 and if both are the same viscosity at 100C, then above 100C the mutigrade will be thicker.
I don't think that's true. While a multigrade oil is non-Newtonian, the vis-to-temp curve is essentially linear, meaning absent shear a multigrade acts like a Newtonian oil.
If you had two oils, a 10w30 and a SAE 30 and if both are the same viscosity at 100C, then above 100C the mutigrade will be thicker.
I don't think that's true. While a multigrade oil is non-Newtonian, the vis-to-temp curve is essentially linear, meaning absent shear a multigrade acts like a Newtonian oil.
VII's are a crutch. They are not engine oil. There are additives that are needed in modern oils for sure. Synthetic oils without VII's are a better oil because of the lack of them.
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
If you had two oils, a 10w30 and a SAE 30 and if both are the same viscosity at 100C, then above 100C the mutigrade will be thicker.
I don't think that's true. While a multigrade oil is non-Newtonian, the vis-to-temp curve is essentially linear, meaning absent shear a multigrade acts like a Newtonian oil.
Maybe not in all cases. I got the info from the Noria book on how to select a motor oil where they give a chart:
Grade: vis at 0C, 100C, 120C
SAE 30: 2500, 12.0, 7.5
10w30: 450, 12.0, 8.5
This assumes no VII shearback.
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
If you had two oils, a 10w30 and a SAE 30 and if both are the same viscosity at 100C, then above 100C the mutigrade will be thicker.
I don't think that's true. While a multigrade oil is non-Newtonian, the vis-to-temp curve is essentially linear, meaning absent shear a multigrade acts like a Newtonian oil.
Maybe not in all cases. I got the info from the Noria book on how to select a motor oil where they give a chart:
Grade: vis at 0C, 100C, 120C
SAE 30: 2500, 12.0, 7.5
10w30: 450, 12.0, 8.5
This assumes no VII shearback.
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Per TaulPall's viscosity chart just above, wouldn't you rather have 10w30 at freezing temperatures? I would. (I don't have modified/race high perforance engines where VIIs might be an issue.)
I agree with Dr_No's post above, and 5w30 is my choice for most applications where it is recommended by the engine manufacturer.
Now if I may inject a question here, don't VIIs contribute to the energy conserving capabilities of an oil, by "shearing" under certain conditions? If so, in what parts of the engine is this shearing desired, and in what parts is it undesirable?
I know some people are against "energy conserving" oils too.
I agree with Dr_No's post above, and 5w30 is my choice for most applications where it is recommended by the engine manufacturer.
Now if I may inject a question here, don't VIIs contribute to the energy conserving capabilities of an oil, by "shearing" under certain conditions? If so, in what parts of the engine is this shearing desired, and in what parts is it undesirable?
I know some people are against "energy conserving" oils too.
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
If they were better at lubricating, then I suppose we would want an oil that is essentially all VII and little or no oil.
Syntec 0w-30 is almost that.
If they were better at lubricating, then I suppose we would want an oil that is essentially all VII and little or no oil.
Syntec 0w-30 is almost that.
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
If they were better at lubricating, then I suppose we would want an oil that is essentially all VII and little or no oil.
Syntec 0w-30 is almost that.
If you're talking about the Syntec 0w30 that's made in Germany, the gas chromatograph test showed this oil had NO polymeric VI improvers.
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
If they were better at lubricating, then I suppose we would want an oil that is essentially all VII and little or no oil.
Syntec 0w-30 is almost that.
If you're talking about the Syntec 0w30 that's made in Germany, the gas chromatograph test showed this oil had NO polymeric VI improvers.
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