Motul Sport Ester 5W-50

Status
Not open for further replies.
Fellas, fellas this is turning into a battle of the semantics. If only we had a oil flow meters fitted to our pickup tubes, we could put all of this to rest eh?

It seems we all agree that lower viscosity = more internal leakage which is effectively equivalent to oil bypass (without implicating the bypass valve - meaning whether bypassed or leaked internally, the resulting inefficiency is the same. This is regardless of the other factors of thin oil, like greater delivery orifice flow, the propensity for thin oil to flow more easily out of the bypass orifice at any given position, which is in turn determined by the backpressure acting on it.

With more viscous oil, internal pump leakage is lesser, meaning more volumetric efficiency, but efficiency is not the problem, so excess volume is bypassed anyway. To continue regulating pressure on the unstoppable positive displacement pump, the bypass valve is implicated (it's always implicated, but simply moreso in this example). More viscous oil requires the bypass to open MORE (the dynamic bypass orifice to be larger) in order to bypass the SAME volume of oil vs thinner oil. This requires a greater backpressure acting on the bypass to achieve the required increase in bypass orifice size to evacuate the same volume of high viscosity oil vs the low viscosity oil example. This is exactly why people see higher oil pressures with thicker oil, regardless of the bypass spring tension not changing and being 'set' to one certain pressure which in reality is dynamic and deviates from real world operating oil pressure.

tl;dr Pressure is regulated by diverting volume. Volume flow reduces with resistance to flow through fixed orifices on output side, and must be compensated for by a dynamic orifice (bypass), but the rate of flow through the dynamic orifice changes with oil viscosity. Therefore, the thicker oil will take more energy from the rotatating assembly to increase the 'head pressure' just to move the bypass into a large enough orifice size to bypass the same, required volume of oil. The increased kinetic energy required to non-productively move the increased bypass volume is converted to heat via molecular friction (which itself is greater than lower viscosity oil, beyond the already increase in bypassed volume) which counterproductively generates more heat.


Logically WRT pump 'efficiency', it's a wash with internal leakage vs volumetric efficiency. Addressing other variables would probably be more productive. The increased 'internal leakage' CATERHAM may have been suggesting by the use of thicker oil (and higher backpressures resulting) simply happens at the bypass valve, not so much in the trochoid's pressure section. The same effective result is happening, just via different routes and due to different variables.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
OVERKILL, I "don't hate being wrong", I'm only interested in the truth.

I can't seem to pull-up the CarCraft oil pump comparison any longer but it does appear as Shannow suggested that the oil pump was in by-pass running the heavier oils. The by-pass spec' for the Milodon 18740 pump is given at 65-70 psi (hot); don't know why "hot" would make any difference. As you know the current by-pass setting on more modern Chevy V8s is around 80 psi.
Anyway, it does appear that the CarCraft oil pump test may have been flawed.

It is your contention that oil flow is the same regardless of an oil's viscosity below the by-pass point. I don't think you're right and it would be nice to have a proper oil flow test to put the issue to bed once and for all. But I do believe the issue is largely moot as I haven't seen any evidence of a large increase in oil temp's running heavier oil unless the oil pump is in by-pass mode.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, as long as you're not in by-pass mode I don't have a problem in using a heavier than spec' oil to maintain a certain desired oil pressure.






So then at the end of this, we are pretty much on the same page now
grin.gif


cheers3.gif


We need to have a beer. We are close enough that it is simply unacceptable that we haven't. As much as I enjoy engaging you in these sometimes heated discussions you must realize that I do have a great deal of respect for you and that's part of the reason that I go after you the way I do on occasion. After all, we are all learning here and this back and forth; this competition to be right is ultimately what drives these things as deep as we often take them.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
OVERKILL, I "don't hate being wrong", I'm only interested in the truth.

I can't seem to pull-up the CarCraft oil pump comparison any longer but it does appear as Shannow suggested that the oil pump was in by-pass running the heavier oils. The by-pass spec' for the Milodon 18740 pump is given at 65-70 psi (hot); don't know why "hot" would make any difference. As you know the current by-pass setting on more modern Chevy V8s is around 80 psi.
Anyway, it does appear that the CarCraft oil pump test may have been flawed.

It is your contention that oil flow is the same regardless of an oil's viscosity below the by-pass point. I don't think you're right and it would be nice to have a proper oil flow test to put the issue to bed once and for all. But I do believe the issue is largely moot as I haven't seen any evidence of a large increase in oil temp's running heavier oil unless the oil pump is in by-pass mode.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, as long as you're not in by-pass mode I don't have a problem in using a heavier than spec' oil to maintain a certain desired oil pressure.






So then at the end of this, we are pretty much on the same page now
grin.gif


cheers3.gif


We need to have a beer. We are close enough that it is simply unacceptable that we haven't. As much as I enjoy engaging you in these sometimes heated discussions you must realize that I do have a great deal of respect for you and that's part of the reason that I go after you the way I do on occasion. After all, we are all learning here and this back and forth; this competition to be right is ultimately what drives these things as deep as we often take them.

Yes it does seem we've arrived at the same practical conclusion from different perspectives.
I would add one further point, if an oil is so grossly heavy that at normal operating temp's the engine rev's must be kept low to avoid by-pass, then the oil flow could be reduced regardless. Even if you rarely take an engine to red-line you should be able to do so without the oil pump going into by-pass. If you can't it's a surefire indication that you're running an oil that's clearly counter-productive. Even in a hot climate you're putting unnecessary stress on the engine including the oil pump on start-up and during warm-up. Over time it will take it's toll.

Yes I know you enjoy trying on certain ideas or beliefs to see if they will float or not. I'd be lying if I said I enjoyed it as much as you apparently do. That said, I do enjoy an intellectual challenge and contrary to what many believe I don't hold any view as sacrosanct, they do evolve over time.

Sure I'd let you buy me a beer. I'd take you for a spin in the Caterham as well if you like, assuming you're not too physically big, it is a very tiny car after all. I think Colin Chapman was only about 5'7" tall and all his early cars were built for drivers not much bigger than that. I'm 5'10" and it's comfortably snug.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Yes it does seem we've arrived at the same practical conclusion from different perspectives.
I would add one further point, if an oil is so grossly heavy that at normal operating temp's the engine rev's must be kept low to avoid by-pass, then the oil flow could be reduced regardless. Even if you rarely take an engine to red-line you should be able to do so without the oil pump going into by-pass. If you can't it's a surefire indication that you're running an oil that's clearly counter-productive. Even in a hot climate you're putting unnecessary stress on the engine including the oil pump on start-up and during warm-up. Over time it will take it's toll.


No disagreement on that from me. I think the engines designed to run on heavy oils, the engineers have thought that part through. At least I'd hope so
smile.gif
(I'm thinking specifically of engines like the S54).

Quote:
Yes I know you enjoy trying on certain ideas or beliefs to see if they will float or not. I'd be lying if I said I enjoyed it as much as you apparently do. That said, I do enjoy an intellectual challenge and contrary to what many believe I don't hold any view as sacrosanct, they do evolve over time.


My sig line on another board used to be "I love to argue". I guess you've picked up on that
grin.gif
Yes, I thoroughly enjoy an engaging conversation with somebody who can carry an educated discourse. I always strive to be right, but that doesn't mean I always am. But at the end of the day, there's always knowledge exchanged and to me that is meaningful.

Quote:
Sure I'd let you buy me a beer. I'd take you for a spin in the Caterham as well if you like, assuming you're not too physically big, it is a very tiny car after all. I think Colin Chapman was only about 5'7" tall and all his early cars were built for drivers not much bigger than that. I'm 5'10" and it's comfortably snug.


Sure, I'll bring the M5! (of course, LOL!) I'm not a big guy, 5'9", 156lbs. And I will certainly buy you a beer. We just need to set a time and place
cheers3.gif
 
I have 20 litres sitting
smile.gif
Let me know if you want a 5L, i will happily post it to you
 
Reviving this thread, these are the analysis results from Backstone. It's the first timei ever did this, so i am new to this, any comments are welcome regarding the results!

m84a.jpg


And their comments : Yes, we have tested this oil before. We can't send them to you because a different customer paid for
them, but we can tell you the additives are remarkably similar to your report. The slight differences are
boron at 69 ppm, magnesium at 13 ppm, and zinc at 845. The starting TBN was 8.5. Your metals look great
in this sample, but your run was a bit shorter than the 11,000 km averages are based on, so we expected
metals to be a little lower. The TBN was still good at 4.5. You should have no problems running longer next
time. Try 9,000 km.
 
Originally Posted By: MINick
Reviving this thread, these are the analysis results from Backstone. It's the first timei ever did this, so i am new to this, any comments are welcome regarding the results!

m84a.jpg

And their comments : Yes, we have tested this oil before. We can't send them to you because a different customer paid for
them, but we can tell you the additives are remarkably similar to your report. The slight differences are
boron at 69 ppm, magnesium at 13 ppm, and zinc at 845. The starting TBN was 8.5. Your metals look great
in this sample, but your run was a bit shorter than the 11,000 km averages are based on, so we expected
metals to be a little lower. The TBN was still good at 4.5. You should have no problems running longer next
time. Try 9,000 km.



Noone?
smile.gif


We had a very nice chat in this topic before
smile.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top