Motul Sport Ester 5W-50

[MINick]

Hi guys, i am using this oil, Motul Sport Ester 5W-50, and i would like to ask you, is anyone else using this oil? It's a new release and i can't find much info. I am asking just in case someone else has sent a sample for examination, and has some data to share. I have a sample ready to ship to Blackstone already.

Btw, i am using this oil in my 02 MINI Cooper, normally aspirated, with 4032 forged pistons, 11.7 compression ratio etc, manufacturer specifies 0W-30, 5W-30, 0W-40 and 5W-40 oil, but i decided to use this because it looks promising in the spec sheet and thought this would be much better for high rpm use. It did improve my oil pressure about 3-4psi over the previous Elf 5W-40 i was using, just to mention.

It's specs are :

cSt@40C : 107.1
cSt@100C : 17.9
HTHS : 4.5
VI : 186
TBN : 8.4
Flash point : 244C/471F

I live in Greece so the climate is relatively hot, the lowest startup temp is around 5C, and this only a few days round the year.

Any opinions or data to share welcome

 

[dailydriver]

Most on here (they will be in very shortly) would claim that is WAY TOO THICK for your usage, EVEN IN torrid Greece, especially for an oil which has a decided rep for NOT shearing at all (due to it's premium base stocks, and premium and low content viscosity index improvers) even in it's broad viscosity spread guises.

Most will tell you to just use Mobil 1 0W-40 (which IS a good suggestion, IF you have it available to you), and to get very accurate oil pressure, and oil temp gauges, and constantly monitor those to see if your oil viscosity is 'just right'.

Do those Motul cans say "Ester Core" anywhere on them, or is that exclusively a North American marketing thing??

 

[MINick]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Most on here (they will be in very shortly) would claim that is WAY TOO THICK for your usage, EVEN IN torrid Greece, especially for an oil which has a decided rep for NOT shearing at all (due to it's premium base stocks, and premium and low content viscosity index improvers) even in it's broad viscosity spread guises.

Most will tell you to just use Mobil 1 0W-40 (which IS a good suggestion, IF you have it available to you), and to get very accurate oil pressure, and oil temp gauges, and constantly monitor those to see if your oil viscosity is 'just right'.

Do those Motul cans say "Ester Core" anywhere on them, or is that exclusively a North American marketing thing??


Thanks for the reply, i already have a very accurate oil press gauge, Autometer Elite series with 5V 0-100psi transducer, and the temp gauge is waiting to go on.

It doesn't say anywhere Ester Core like the latest evolution of 300V oils, but it is an ester based oil.

To be honest, i am not very familiar with all these specs, i know what i know by reading on here for some time.

But why would it be way too thick? I partially understand this, when the oil is cold, although the cSt@40 is not tragicaly high, but i thought the much better cSt@100 and HTHS values would only do good in spirited driving and some occasional track use. Am i mistaken?

 

[aquariuscsm]

The Syntec 5W50 I`m using looks thick on paper,but seems to be a thin as a 10W30. It pours through the funnel much thinner than the last 10W40 I used.

 

[MINick]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
The Syntec 5W50 I`m using looks thick on paper,but seems to be a thin as a 10W30. It pours through the funnel much thinner than the last 10W40 I used.


Nice idea

I will do the same to compare the sport 5W50 with a remaining litre of 8100 xcess 5W40 i have. (yes i am a Motul fanboy hehe)

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: MINick

But why would it be way too thick? I partially understand this, when the oil is cold, although the cSt@40 is not tragicaly high, but i thought the much better cSt@100 and HTHS values would only do good in spirited driving and some occasional track use. Am i mistaken?


I can appreciate the high compression ratio on this engine, but 50 grade ester, IMO, is excessive viscosity for your application. High RPM usage in a small, atmospheric engine is just not useful for such a beefy oil. The pumping losses alone will cost you some power at the wheels; no one wants to lose power overcoming molecular friction just to make more heat

I mention this with regards to your specific engine as viscosity drag is not so apparent in large, low RPM engines or race engines with loose clearances and extreme heat power adders. If you look at the recommended viscosities, you can see that it is a modern engine given the 30 grade spec in the international market. An ester 30 grade is more than appropriate, with non-synthetic 40 grades being suitable for your worst conditions. Any synthetic 30 grade would be my choice, much more than that would become hard to justify

 

[MINick]

Do you have any rough estimate of the pumping loss going from a 0W-40 ester oil to a 5W-50 one?

 

[MINick]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: MINick

But why would it be way too thick? I partially understand this, when the oil is cold, although the cSt@40 is not tragicaly high, but i thought the much better cSt@100 and HTHS values would only do good in spirited driving and some occasional track use. Am i mistaken?


I can appreciate the high compression ratio on this engine, but 50 grade ester, IMO, is excessive viscosity for your application. High RPM usage in a small, atmospheric engine is just not useful for such a beefy oil. The pumping losses alone will cost you some power at the wheels; no one wants to lose power overcoming molecular friction just to make more heat

I mention this with regards to your specific engine as viscosity drag is not so apparent in large, low RPM engines or race engines with loose clearances and extreme heat power adders. If you look at the recommended viscosities, you can see that it is a modern engine given the 30 grade spec in the international market. An ester 30 grade is more than appropriate, with non-synthetic 40 grades being suitable for your worst conditions. Any synthetic 30 grade would be my choice, much more than that would become hard to justify


Also, why would you suggest a 40, but non ester oil, and not a 40 ester? Trying to learn a few things here

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
The Syntec 5W50 I`m using looks thick on paper,but seems to be a thin as a 10W30. It pours through the funnel much thinner than the last 10W40 I used.


Not sure how appearance while pouring is relevant.

 

[MINick]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
The Syntec 5W50 I`m using looks thick on paper,but seems to be a thin as a 10W30. It pours through the funnel much thinner than the last 10W40 I used.


Not sure how appearance while pouring is relevant.


I guess the oil pump would "feel" the same thing when cold? Or not?

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: MINick
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: MINick

But why would it be way too thick? I partially understand this, when the oil is cold, although the cSt@40 is not tragicaly high, but i thought the much better cSt@100 and HTHS values would only do good in spirited driving and some occasional track use. Am i mistaken?


I can appreciate the high compression ratio on this engine, but 50 grade ester, IMO, is excessive viscosity for your application. High RPM usage in a small, atmospheric engine is just not useful for such a beefy oil. The pumping losses alone will cost you some power at the wheels; no one wants to lose power overcoming molecular friction just to make more heat

I mention this with regards to your specific engine as viscosity drag is not so apparent in large, low RPM engines or race engines with loose clearances and extreme heat power adders. If you look at the recommended viscosities, you can see that it is a modern engine given the 30 grade spec in the international market. An ester 30 grade is more than appropriate, with non-synthetic 40 grades being suitable for your worst conditions. Any synthetic 30 grade would be my choice, much more than that would become hard to justify


Also, why would you suggest a 40, but non ester oil, and not a 40 ester? Trying to learn a few things here

Ester based oils tend to exhibit better operating viscosity vs petroleum oils and other synthetic bases, generally estimated as equivalent to one grade up. The HTHS viscosity parameter is an indication of this. So if you felt that you absolutely needed a 40 grade performance, then a 30 grade ester would provide that, while also reducing parasitic drag vs a petro 40 grade.

Originally Posted By: MINick
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
The Syntec 5W50 I`m using looks thick on paper,but seems to be a thin as a 10W30. It pours through the funnel much thinner than the last 10W40 I used.


Not sure how appearance while pouring is relevant.


I guess the oil pump would "feel" the same thing when cold? Or not?


If "cold" is 40C, then the ester 50 would always be thicker at start up than an equivalent 40 or 30.

107@40
18@100

is quite viscous!!

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Not sure how appearance while pouring is relevant.

Maybe much higher VI!

 

[A_Harman]

If you drive aggressively, I wouldn't be surprised if you find the 5w50 shears to a 40-weight in a couple of thousand miles. In Greece's mild climate, I think a 5 or 10w40 would do the job.

 

[pscholte]

According to the mini forum I researched minis leave the factory with 5W-30. Now the factory doesn't know where the car will eventually "live" and modern 5W-30s are very capable oils. So they may send out the car with a "median solution.". And normally I would say (and I am tempted to now) go with the factory. BUT you have modded your car and you track it and, I know from experience, that Greece, at least around Athens, is HOT. So I think you would be OK with a 0W-40. Zee dub for start up wear and no thicker than the 40

 

[84zmyfavorite]

Motul 300V Trophy 0w-40 sounds Right to me. Lil BMW motor would Love that.

 

[pscholte]

Good choice

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: MINick

Btw, i am using this oil in my 02 MINI Cooper, normally aspirated, with 4032 forged pistons, 11.7 compression ratio etc, manufacturer specifies 0W-30, 5W-30, 0W-40 and 5W-40 oil, but i decided to use this because it looks promising in the spec sheet and thought this would be much better for high rpm use. It did improve my oil pressure about 3-4psi over the previous Elf 5W-40 i was using, just to mention.

Oil pressure correlates to HTHSV and VI.
You're seeing higher OP due to the high 4.5cP HTHSV rating of this oil. Since the engine has been modified, maintaining a minimum OP of say 5 psi over the factory spec's is what I'd recommend. How hot your oil gets will ultimately determine whether you need to run a HTHSV 3.6-3.8cP 40wt oil let alone a HTHSV 4.5cP 50wt.

A sure sign an oil may be too heavy and therefore will be counter-productive, is when the oil is up to normal operating temp's and you still cannot use maximum rev's without the oil pump going into by-pass mode.

 

[MINick]

Thanks for the input guys, i think i made the wrong choice here. I actually perceived as a good thing the oil pressure increase with the 5W-50, i guess i was wrong

 

[MINick]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: MINick

Btw, i am using this oil in my 02 MINI Cooper, normally aspirated, with 4032 forged pistons, 11.7 compression ratio etc, manufacturer specifies 0W-30, 5W-30, 0W-40 and 5W-40 oil, but i decided to use this because it looks promising in the spec sheet and thought this would be much better for high rpm use. It did improve my oil pressure about 3-4psi over the previous Elf 5W-40 i was using, just to mention.

Oil pressure correlates to HTHSV and VI.
You're seeing higher OP due to the high 4.5cP HTHSV rating of this oil. Since the engine has been modified, maintaining a minimum OP of say 5 psi over the factory spec's is what I'd recommend. How hot your oil gets will ultimately determine whether you need to run a HTHSV 3.6-3.8cP 40wt oil let alone a HTHSV 4.5cP 50wt.

A sure sign an oil may be too heavy and therefore will be counter-productive, is when the oil is up to normal operating temp's and you still cannot use maximum rev's without the oil pump going into by-pass mode.


Thanks for the info.
There is one issue with these engines. The oil pump doesn't flow enough to maintain high oil pressure at high rpm. To make it more clear, from 6k rpm and up, the pressure tapers from 74psi (with hot oil), to about 65psi at 7400rpm, which is my rev limiter at this point. In a few weeks, the rev limit will climb to 8100rpm, and i guess the oil pressure will taper down to 60psi at that rpm.

About the bypass, the bypass point is 80psi aprox, and it will never go into bypass after 5 mins of driving.

 

[CATERHAM]

Interesting that you lose OP at high rpms; I've never experienced that with any car.

I'm surprised you're not in by-pass with the Motul 5W-50 but since you're not I don't see a problem in running it. It does have a high VI which I'm sure is part of the reason you're out of by-pass quickly after start-up.