Motorcycle oils vs HDEOs

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It is well proven that HDEOs work well in motorcycles, so they likely have similar base stocks and additive packs. How do motorcycle oils as a group differ compared to HDEOs? Some HDEOs have moly in them, so they may have too much for wet clutches. I assume since motorcycles run at higher RPMs, motorcycle oils may have more antifoam additives.
 
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Id like to read some informed replys to this myself.. what are the real differences ? sure we KNOW HDEO's will work, but what are you sacrificing if anything chooseing to use them over labeled "motorcycle specific oils" ??
 
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I took a click over to the UOA section and copied a few numbers from different oils. It was interesting, here's what I found. The first uoa was for Delo LE 15/40 wt. These numbers were the results after 4300 miles, moly-157 Cal-2208,magnes-339,phos-993,zinc-1379. The flash point was 435 degrees and the TBN was 3.9. The next victim was a sample of Valvoline VR-1 20/50 wt oil with 4889 miles on the sample.Moly-4 Cal-2203,magnes-9,phos-1226,zinc-1330, flash point was 445 degrees and the TBN was 6.2. The last one was Amsoil mc oil 10/40 wt with 3301 miles on the sample.Moly-43,cal-3010,magnes-23,phos-1188,zinc-1297,Flashpoint-365 degrees, not tbn taken. It seems every oil mfg has what they think is the right recipe. Harley's Old VOA syn 3 sample has less additives the most other oils, but they feel that's all a Harley needs in an oil for the entire 5k oci.The numbers I posted were from samples from 3 different bike mfgrs, so the end results may not be the same for your brand of bike.,,
 

ledslinger

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BigCahuna - I wondered about the possibility of motorcycle oils not being similar enough as group to have an easily defined makeup to compare. HDEOs may be of similar makeup as a group since the parameters for the intended engines is a bit narrower. Might have to look at specs for companies that make both oils and see how they compare.
 
Originally Posted By: ledslinger
BigCahuna - I wondered about the possibility of motorcycle oils not being similar enough as group to have an easily defined makeup to compare. HDEOs may be of similar makeup as a group since the parameters for the intended engines is a bit narrower. Might have to look at specs for companies that make both oils and see how they compare.
I think we're getting hung up on what the front label of the oil says and not what's important--the oil specs on the back label. For instance, I use Shell Rotella T 15w-40 in my Kawasaki. . .front label indicates it's an HDEO intended for diesel trucks, but the specs on the back label reveal that it's rated JASO MA, which is a specific motorcycle spec--it IS a motorcycle oil AND a diesel truck oil. This tells me that HDEOs and motorcycle oils are VERY similar and the UOAs confirm that. My sense is that Chevron Delo, Mobil Delvac etc. would also meet JASO MA, but they don't bother to have it tested for that spec for whatever reason. Shell did and that's why I use Rotella. Just my two cents. . .
 
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Originally Posted By: Robster
[quote=ledslinger]BigCahuna - This tells me that HDEOs and motorcycle oils are VERY similar and the UOAs confirm that. My sense is that Chevron Delo, Mobil Delvac etc. would also meet JASO MA, but they don't bother to have it tested for that spec for whatever reason. Shell did and that's why I use Rotella. Just my two cents. . .
I have an old "82 Honda goldwing that I bought used 4 years ago. It had 38k miles on it when I got it.The bike is ridden year round and runs fine. The owners manual has castrol 20/50 written inside, so I guess that's what the previous owner used. My first oil change was with Rotella t, the next was Delo 400. The next was with Delvac 1300, and my last is Walmart 20/50. The bike runs the same on all oils with no clutch problems. I've convinced myself the oils available today are worlds better the what was around in 1982, when my bike was made.I've never had a uoa done with any of the oils but, I would use just about oil on the market the cheaper the better, and not be worried based on my own personal experience.,
 
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When you get 100,000 miles on a motorcycle clutch, then you'll know how good of clutch friction your oil has. All the diesils are fine for clutch, Atleast Ive not seen one have issue yet. Some are too strong (frictional) on the clutch and it hurts shifting. The slickest shifting oils are going to be loaded with MOLY, like 500 to 700 PPM , those are going to be borderline frictional, even though they may just clear the MA GATE.
 
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Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
When you get 100,000 miles on a motorcycle clutch, then you'll know how good of clutch friction your oil has. All the diesils are fine for clutch, Atleast Ive not seen one have issue yet. Some are too strong (frictional) on the clutch and it hurts shifting. The slickest shifting oils are going to be loaded with MOLY, like 500 to 700 PPM , those are going to be borderline frictional, even though they may just clear the MA GATE.
I gotta (respectfully) disagree with the moly association with slickest shifting. In my mind, differences in cling and traction are associated with clutch separation which affects spin-down and ultimately the manner in which shifts are slick (or not). Over the years, I've experimented with many, many, different oils in the primary chaincases on Harleys (separate from the transmission) and found that most of the oils that had high moly content didn't do any better than any of the others. In some cases, they were worse. Mobil Delvac, Mobil 1 Racing 4T and Amsoil MCF gave the best results. For the transmissions - WalMart conventional 75W-90 was the worst. Mobil 1 Synthetic 75W-90 LS or Amsoil 75W-110 worked the best. Many motor oils also worked well. Most notably Mobil 1 Racing 4T or V-Twin or the same oil in the Amsoil label.
 
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Originally Posted By: ledslinger
It is well proven that HDEOs work well in motorcycles, so they likely have similar base stocks and additive packs. How do motorcycle oils as a group differ compared to HDEOs? Some HDEOs have moly in them, so they may have too much for wet clutches. I assume since motorcycles run at higher RPMs, motorcycle oils may have more antifoam additives.
HDEO's are a recent arrival on the motorcycle scene. Many of us have used them forever, even before they were fashionable. Motorcycle oils have a little different add-pack. No soot dispersants, etc. Diesel oils (until recently) wouldn't make the 1.2% maximum for sulphated ash. With the new API specs, most of these diesel oils will meet these JASO MA specs. Chevron Delo is the only HDEO (that I'm aware of) that has a lot of moly in the mix. It would not be my first choice.
 
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Originally Posted By: kballowe
Originally Posted By: ledslinger
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Chevron Delo is the only HDEO (that I'm aware of) that has a lot of moly in the mix. It would not be my first choice.
The old Delo had 220 ppm of moly, the revised version less than 100 ppm. MOtul Motorcycle oil the group 5 stuff has over 550 ppm of moly, Many mc oils average less then 100 ppm moly, and redline has over 700 ppm moly. I trust Delo more in the clutch than many mc oils, your opinion is not warranted by the data as far as moly. Even amsoil has put 50 ppm moly in its 10w40 mc oil having 20,000 mile on Delo with a 90,0000 mile clutch Delo is a strong clutch oil, and shifts alot better than rotella MA Rated
 
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Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
Originally Posted By: kballowe
Originally Posted By: ledslinger
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Chevron Delo is the only HDEO (that I'm aware of) that has a lot of moly in the mix. It would not be my first choice.
The old Delo had 220 ppm of moly, the revised version less than 100 ppm. MOtul Motorcycle oil the group 5 stuff has over 550 ppm of moly, Many mc oils average less then 100 ppm moly, and redline has over 700 ppm moly. I trust Delo more in the clutch than many mc oils, your opinion is not warranted by the data as far as moly. Even amsoil has put 50 ppm moly in its 10w40 mc oil having 20,000 mile on Delo with a 90,0000 mile clutch Delo is a strong clutch oil, and shifts alot better than rotella MA Rated
Yeah, last time I looked, many motorcycle oils (Amsoil, Mobil 1 included) had somewhere between 50 and 100ppm moly and a JASO MA rating. I'm glad that you get good clutch service and smooth shifting from that Delo. Rotella and Delvac seem to work the best in my bikes. But yes - I certainly wouldn't run the Royal Purple or Motul that you mentioned. Probably as much reason because of the price. GL1800 Gold Wing VTX1300 VSTAR1300 FLSTF FXDB FXDC
 
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Surprisingly, I never had any clutch issue with 550 ppm Motul, but the 700 ppm Redline I did have mild slippage issues develope, with a different bike and had to switch back to a known good clutch oil, which no more problem afterwards. But Redline is an MB rated fluid its too slick to meet the MA gate, and it shows to be very marginal on the clutch, but may or may not have issue. But I guarantee, will go longer on a clutch with a strong clutch oil than a marginal one. laugh
 
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I use rotella 15-40 in a turbo hayabusa with a fairly soft tune for street. Makes about 315 hp to the wheel. Oil works perfect.
 
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The moly issue is a throw back to oils like ARCO that were loaded with molybdenum-sulfide (black moly). The "moly" in modern oils is soluble and is a non-issue as far as wet clutch durability. You do want to stay clear from friction modifiers that are in most energy conserving labled oils.
 
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Originally Posted By: BillyTheKid
I use rotella 15-40 in a turbo hayabusa with a fairly soft tune for street. Makes about 315 hp to the wheel. Oil works perfect.
You have to be kidding! That's unbelievable rear wheel horsepower. How do you keep rubber on that thing? What kind of quarter mile time/speed will that thing do? 315 h.p.???? Wow!
 
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Thats a soft tune and not even much power compared to other people I know. I have not raced it but if I set up the chassis and put a good Mickey or a shinko tire on, plus spooled more boost, I would guess about 8.0 to 7.9 range. My friend and builder runs in the 7s. I just keep mine as a street toy. Right now just blows the tire away 1-4th gear.
 
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