EP Additives in Motorcycle oil for the gears?

ChristianReske

ChristianReske

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Munich, Germany
Could somebody please enlighten me?

It is claimed numerous times here and by the manufacturers that one of the differences between Car - and Motorcycle oils is that motorcycle oils contain EP additives meant to protect the gears in the gearbox of the motorcycle engine.
But, usually EP additives are sulphur based and - to my knowledge - not usebale in a 4 Stroke combustion Engine.

So, what is used as EP additve in Motorcycle oils?
 
My observation is motorcycle oils aren’t supposed to have friction modifiers because they will cause clutch slippage. In my experience and opinion this is nonsense. If you look at oil analysis for both types of oil there isn’t much difference for most. Moly is supposed to be the big no no yet most motorcycle oils have very similar amounts of moly as CAR oils. In Redline motorcycle oil the use a very high amount of moly. Personally I have ridden over 500,000 miles on high torque and H. P. Bikes, have NEVER used MOTORCYCLE oils and have never had any clutch slippage.
Specifically to your question, NO, sulfur containing oils would not in my opinion ever be used in an engine. I have never heard the argument that bike oils contain E. P. Additives, just no, or less slippery F. M.
 
Not aware of motorcycle oils for wet clutch systems that would use EP additives. Aren't those for heavy duty gears ?

Motorcycle oils for wet clutch systems contain shear-stable additives that are not mandatorily EP additives me think.

Maxima's boss described them as 'sacrificial long chain molecules" in a chat we had eons ago, this really stuck in my brain for a while.

Was fighting visions of a Molla Ram yelling "Kalimaaa, Shakti de!" while the poor molecule mumbles "Om namah Shivay"...blast, here it goes again :giggle:

Plus, not that many motorcycles were catalyzed up to a few years ago. They had all sorts of carb emissions devices for a while but no catalytic converters till what - BMW in the early 2000s and all the others as late as possible.
 
since the final drive of a motorcycle isn't part of the gearbox, but rather the chain, belt or axle, the torque multiplication is limited. And most motorcycle engines aren't torque monsters anyway.

Oil types that are suitable for manual transmissions (GL-4) are good enough for the gearbox part of a motorcycle oil. BTW, engine oil can have gl-4 level of protection from zddp. the second d in that acronym stands for dithio, so there's sulfur present...
 
As far as Harley's oils go, they're recommendation for oil is kinda unusual. First off, any book or manual from them says to use their brand of oil in their motorcycles. No mention of any other brand of motorcycle oil. The only exception to that is they recommend using diesel oil , if Harley's brand of oil is not available. And to change out the diesel asap. With their engine oil ,they say it can be used in the engine, trans and primary cases. But they also sell primary use oil, that can be used in the transmission. Plus they came out a few years ago with a 85/140 wt oil for the trans. I believe it has been determined that Harleys engine oil of the 20w50 variety, has a rating of GL 1. That tells me the Harley trans isn't that particular about what grade oil is used in it. I've been using automotive trans gear oil in the 70/90 wt range rated GL5 for years in my transmission. I've had no issues with it. I've also used just about every brand of engine oil in my engine. Same will say it's motorcycle rated oil, some just say it's a 20/50 wt engine oil. I recently had a Kawasaki Voyager that called for 10w40 wt oil. Like Harley, Kawasaki wants you to use their brand of oil. But it was happy with Castrol 10w40 wt motorcycle oil, which had a Ma2 rating if I recall correctly. Oils well that ends well.,,,
 
My understanding is that dedicated MTF's (Manual Transmission Fluids) use Anti-Wear additives whereas differential lubes use Extreme Pressure (EP) additives.

Below is a quote from Exxon/Mobil in an earlier thread when someone asked about the comparison of Mobil 1V-Twin 20/50 and 75w/140 in a Harley 6 speed:

“Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 is a motor oil while Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lube LS 75W-140 is a gear oil. Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lube LS 75W-140 does not contain any significant amount of zinc as that additive is not beneficial to the applications it is designed for. These two products do not have the same additive packages and cannot be compared in the fashion that you are asking us to do.”

“If you are trying to compare these products in similar applications, one of them will generally be considerably better than the other. For example, Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lube LS 75W-140 will be much better at wear protection under extreme loads, this is because it is designed to provide performance in these applications. Much in the same vein, Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 will do much better in applications where friction control, detergency and lubricity are required (i.e. internal combustion engines, transmissions with wet clutches/synchronizers, etc.) as it is designed for these applications."

N

Thread 'Redline 75w/110 - UOA Included'

Hi, I am new here, apologies if I do something wrong.

I am interested in Redline 75w/110 for a Harley 6 speed transmission and found the below UOA on another site. It may also be on BITOG. I am curious what you think about it. The UOA results have 10k miles from a motorcycle that shares the transmission with the primary (clutch and chain). One thing that is very different then the other lubes I looked at is the large amount of Phosphorus. Again, this is after 10k miles.


Thank you.


[Linked Image]
 
EvoMan said:
My understanding is that dedicated MTF's (Manual Transmission Fluids) use Anti-Wear additives whereas differential lubes use Extreme Pressure (EP) additives.

Below is a quote from Exxon/Mobil in an earlier thread when someone asked about the comparison of Mobil 1V-Twin 20/50 and 75w/140 in a Harley 6 speed:

“Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 is a motor oil while Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lube LS 75W-140 is a gear oil. Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lube LS 75W-140 does not contain any significant amount of zinc as that additive is not beneficial to the applications it is designed for. These two products do not have the same additive packages and cannot be compared in the fashion that you are asking us to do.”

“If you are trying to compare these products in similar applications, one of them will generally be considerably better than the other. For example, Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lube LS 75W-140 will be much better at wear protection under extreme loads, this is because it is designed to provide performance in these applications. Much in the same vein, Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 will do much better in applications where friction control, detergency and lubricity are required (i.e. internal combustion engines, transmissions with wet clutches/synchronizers, etc.) as it is designed for these applications."

N

Thread 'Redline 75w/110 - UOA Included'

Hi, I am new here, apologies if I do something wrong.

I am interested in Redline 75w/110 for a Harley 6 speed transmission and found the below UOA on another site. It may also be on BITOG. I am curious what you think about it. The UOA results have 10k miles from a motorcycle that shares the transmission with the primary (clutch and chain). One thing that is very different then the other lubes I looked at is the large amount of Phosphorus. Again, this is after 10k miles.


Thank you.


[Linked Image]
Click to expand...
Many many automobile manual transmissions use simple motor oil at least for a long time. My Hondas used simple 1040 motor oil.
The best lubricant is oil not anti-wear additives.
Anti-wear additives come in handy to protect an engine before lubrication reaches all areas
A transmission gears are always wet

Most gear lubes for domestic vehicles nowadays are safe however some EP additives can break down seals.
 
Thank you guys for all the educational answers. So, the difference is between AW and EP additives.
The AW additives and the additive pack in Motorcycle oils are good enough to do the job of protecting the gears.
Thinking about it, Honda reccomended simply engine oil for the manual Transmission in their cars for decades.
So, it is mostly Marketing when motorcycle oil Manufatureres claim that their oils contains special or extra additives to protect the gears.....
 
The real truth is that oil shared by the engine and the gears is a compromise whether it's Japanese motorcycles or cars like the old Mini A series engine and some old Peugeot engines. The compromise works well enough provided the oil is changed often but it's not optimum.
 
Good point, i forget about the old Minis, wich also had the Engine and Gerabox share one sump.
But it was also claimed that you need a special oil for these cars...

So, it´s all marketing?
 
The Importance of Viscosity?
Quote Blackstone Labs

The oil’s ability to act like a solid and protect parts is not related
to its viscosity. Consider this: The gears in a heavy duty Allison
automatic transmission are doing the same work as the same machine
equipped with an Eaton manual transmission. Due to the hydraulics of
the automatic, it runs on a 10W automatic transmission oil.But the
manual transmission uses a very thick (sometimes up to 90W)gear lube
oil. The gears of both types of transmissions will have a similar life
span. We don’t find any significant differences in wear, regardless of
oil thickness.
 
To the best of my recollection, there was a chart posted somewhere on this site that gave the GL rating for oils. Harley for instance always says to use their engine oil in their engine, primary's, and transmission. It was posted that their 20w50 wt oil carried a GL-1 rating. Millions of Harley owners follow their recommendation, and it seems to work. But then a few years back, Harley created a 85w140 wt gear for use in their transmission. I've been using a Gl-5 rated gear oil for years and that also works fine. Being there is no brass parts in a Harleys transmission. One difference is, Harley says to change the trans oil out at between 5-10k miles, depending on the year of the vehicle, and if your using their engine oil in the trans. I'm not sure what oci they recommend for their gear oil. But I do know in cars, people have gone 100k miles on the same trans oil without changing it out, with no problems. Harley Motorcycle transmissions are smaller than a cars trans, and have around a qt of fluid in them. And the trans oil doesn't get the same contaminates that engine oil does . There must be a completely different formula and ingredient package for gear oil, being it's never recommended for use in a gasoline vehicle's engine. The only Harley trans problem I've heard about is, they tend to develop a left side shaft seal leak, after 50k miles when using Harley engine oil in the trans. As far as other brands of motorcycles using engine oil in a shared use situation, it seems their oils get sheared down a grade or 2 from running the thru the trans. But in the big picture, it doesn't seem the effect longevity of the engine.,,
 
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