motor guard

[Gary Allan]

P

You're the first person, to my knowledge, to propose this type of return method. It's quite compelling (READ: I like the novel approach

) . I think if you ask Ralph ..he'll confirm this. You and I share one commonality ..we both tend to envision situations that never occured to others. You don't know how many times I had the engineers at my old job scratching their heads grasping for "what if" answers

I don't know your comprehension level of flows/pressures and whatnot ..so forgive me if I get fundamental or redundant.

Although the pressure relief valve on the premacool will open @ 2psi ...that's not the limit it will see. That poppet is alot smaller than the added area of the holes in your ff filter. I venture to say that if you put two pressure guages tapped across the premcool (one in each port) ..you would typically see more than 2psi diff between them ...depending on oil pump output (rpms).

This restrictor (the relief valve) is only there to create that differential because you're returning it to the point immmediately after it. That is, it inserts a resistance to compell flow through the bypass media. I assert that this may be unecessary in your case since the FULL FLOW FILTER will do this SAME FUNCTION since you are BYPASSING IT ...just like you BYPASS the relief valve in the permacool. That is, the ff becomes the resistance to compell flow. I would think that 2 psi would be realized across a ff filter, even at operating temps.

If you leave the relief valve totally intact as it comes from Permacool ..you will be INCREASING the total resistance to the pressure port via the ff fliter pathway.

That is:

Permacool relief port resistance (variable depending on flow/viscosity) + ff resistance (variable depending on flow/viscosity/bypass valve setting) in parallel to the M30 bypass filter ..both on their way to the sender port.


In other words ...starting off ..you will have the MAX flow through the M30. The total flow (assuming the pressure relief limit for the OIL PUMP is not reached at any time) will be unchanged to the pressure sender port ..they both reconverge there. If "too much flow" is occuring ...it will be here. The pressure drop across both the relief valve and the ff is greater than the relief valve alone.


P ..thank you for this stimulating topic to ponder here. I hope that you see I'm not arguing with either you or Ralph ...you've added a new spice to the sauce and I just like the flavor of it ..so to speak. If I had thought of it (darn it ..you beat me to some novel approach to something - my ® trademark

) these are the aspects of it that I'd ponder ...at length (visions of that poster that depicts philosophers and theologians looking at a box with a big "N" on it with the caption, "Is "nothing" sacred?")

If I had the time ...and really wanted to get the "fat" on this, I'd install the permacool sandwich "straight up" and take pressure readings across the relief valve (plugging one at a time and rigging a gauge to each) over the full spectrum of engine temps and rpms. This would give me the max and min resistance that the relief valve and ff present to oil flow. This would also give me (assuming you have a gauge output from the sender/sensor) any loss in pressure data that may occur. If the pressure at the sender was unchanged ...and I had at least 2psi differential (if that's the spec that Ralph says is "enough") during warm engine/2000 rpm, then that's where it would stay. If however warm/2000 rpm differential was substantially higher ...then I'd incrementally open the relief port. If I have my 2-4 psi differential and my M30 didn't get warm ..I'd remove the restrictor.


Not matter which way you go on it, good luck!!! and let us know what happens with this novel return modality.

 

[RalphPWood]

I have a M-30 on a 100 HP Gardner Denver air compressor at work. The big stock filter is supported by the large pipe that feeds it. There are two 1/8" ports in the filter mount. One at the inlet and one at the outlet. As the filter gets dirtier the pressure drop increases. I use these ports to feed the Motor Guard. The pressure drop never gets over 2 psi because the M-30 is doing all the work. It uses a very expensive synthetic oil that is very aggressive. At 500 hrs the TP is still strong and I can unroll it and tear it at each sheet. At 1000 hrs it is starting to get rotten. I change it at 500 hrs. Some Fleetguard literature tells that the CH4/CH4Plus oils are very aggressive and paper filters should be changed at 25,000 miles or 300 hrs or less.
On the large Fleetguard LF 750 housings there is a problem using the sandwich adapters. There is four gallons of air that is fed into the oil system. Until the big filter fills up the oil going to the engine may cause the hydraulic valves to rattle or other problems. I would probably do it myself but I will tell others to hook up the filters in the conventional way. I could always use a valve to bleed the air after the filter is changed. There are some innovative people on this forum. Most anything I do others have done before.

Ralph

 

[P]

Gary,

I just want to be sure what your saying.

In your last reply you said the relief valve on the Permacool sandwich adapter is a RESTRICTOR(4th paragraph).

In the 2nd to last paragraph you said If "I have my 2-4 psi differential and my M30 didn't get warm...I'd remove the RESTRICTOR"

Did you mean ORIFICE IN THE BYPASS FILTER?

In the event of future discussions can we agree to call the ORIFICE in a bypass filter an "ORIFICE IN A BYPASS FILTER" to avoid confusion.

I would drill a 1/2 inch hole between the inlet and outlet ports of the permacool sandwich adapter(as you mentioned in an earlier post) for my bypass filter setup or use a franz sandwich adapter(with one port plugged)----If the differential pressure measurements between the inlet of the sandwich adapter and the oem pressure port were AT LEAST 2 PSI OVER A WIDE RANGE OF RPMS when the OIL IS AT NORMAL OPERATING TEMPERATURE(When the oil is cold I'm assuming there will be zero or minimal flow thru the bypass filter at any differential pressure) I would test my bypass filter setup with the 1/16" ORIFICE IN THE BYPASS FILTER installed and see if it heated up when the OIL IS AT NORMAL OPERATING TEMPERATURE. If not, then I would incrementally increase the hole in the ORIFICE IN THE BYPASS FILTER until the bypass filter heats up. This may eventually lead to REMOVING the ORIFICE IN THE BYPASS FILTER.

Gary, as you have probably noticed I have incorporated some of your ideas into my bypass filter setup,--- but I don't see why the "pressure at the sender"(2nd to last paragraph in your last reply) has to remain unchanged when testing the differential pressures in order for the bypass filter in my setup to work. It would seem that the pressure at the oem pressure port would HAVE TO CHANGE during the differential pressure test due to changes in oil flow at different oil temperatures and changes in oil flow at different engine rpm's (assuming the pump bypass valve remains closed)

Respectfully--p

 

[Gary Allan]

First let me address this part to Ralph.

It occurred to me that I haven't been very apparent in including you in my dialoge with P in addressing your critique of this set up. This, in hind sight, could be considered "rude". This gave me a feeling not unlike the one you get when you fail to properly thank your parents for something that they've done for you gratis. I've tried to address some of your, albeit mild, objections to this set up and hopefully have given my "assumed" reasons for seeing, if not value, the viability of this installation. You're the man on these things ...but I'm sure you will agree, that no matter where we've gone, someone just may have a different approach that may have certain advantages. That is, until you get it aloft ..you don't know how it will fly. If anything, we'll learn either that this DOES work well ..or it DOES NOT work well. We'll all learn something here.

This is good "stuff".

Back to P

quote:

---

In your last reply you said the relief valve on the Permacool sandwich adapter is a RESTRICTOR(4th paragraph).

---

I should have said "it's a restriction". My bad

quote:

---

In the 2nd to last paragraph you said If "I have my 2-4 psi differential and my M30 didn't get warm...I'd remove the RESTRICTOR"

Did you mean ORIFICE IN THE BYPASS FILTER?

In the event of future discussions can we agree to call the ORIFICE in a bypass filter an "ORIFICE IN A BYPASS FILTER" to avoid confusion.

---

You correctly interpretted my lack of using proper nomenclature. Okay! Orifice it is!!


In regard to your last paragraph...

(cue House of Pain's rhythum introduction to "Jump" in a continuos loop playing in background)

I agree. I think that you WILL see a loss of pressure at the sender. I don't see how you can't. I merely suggested doing it so you didn't ruin a perfectly good Permacool unnecessarily if I'm FOS ..and the bypass poppet valve (in the adapter) is totally adaquate for your needs in terms of volume and resistance. I mean why jump ("come on!" from the background music)in whole hog if you're willing to do this incrementally? Measure twice ..cut once.

The only disadvantage to running the Permacool "wide open" (several holes in it or one big one) is that your differential across the ff will be variable as it ages. That is, you'll have less when the ff filter is new ...more when the ff filter becomes more saturated. This isn't necessarily a bad thing since neither filter has a linear life span and will "work it out" between themselves ..so to speak. This doesn't occur "right off the bat" like a Frantz type setup that is returned to a non-pressurized environment since the orifice defeats this increasing differential of the ff filter. The orifice effectively makes the saturation of the ff a non-issue. In this installation ..the differential of the ff is the main inducement for flow ..so it is directly relevant.

So ..to maintain the maximum flexibility in the system I would think that first determining the baseline differential with the Permacool intact would be a good move. You can then add a couple of 1/16" holes. This allows the poppet to become a "reactive" component and open up when the cold oil needs it ...close or modulate when the oil is hot or engine speed changes. I don't think two or three 1/16" holes would adaquately supply your engine under most viscosity levels. This will assure 'some" differential when both filters are new. This should make it somewhat self compensating.

This should assure that you'll get a "hot" filter right away ..and not 500 miles from now.


Although I'm not certain, I think that the orifice will become a non-issue.

btw- Since you're doing ALL the work here ...and I'm talking from the cheap seats, IF this doesn't bear fruit, I'll be totally willing to send you my unused permacool adapter for use if this one proves to be non-functional for your needs in this installation ..or any other if this method doesn't work. We're going to all learn something here ..and I'm more than willing to provide some material support ..at least in this manner.

 

[LarryL]

Help. I'm getting lost. Let me see if I have this right. You put an adaptor between the full flow oil filter and the engine that has and additional out and in port to bypass oil. Then you restrict the flow through the FF filter and tap this flow through the out port to a BP filter. The return flow goes back to the adaptor through the in port and flow is possible because this return flow is at a higher pressure than the return port in the adaptor, which, in effect is the oil that has gone through the FF filter and is itself returning to the high pressure side of the oil system in the engine.

I would sure like an explination that makes sence. I guess I'm just lost.

 

[Gary Allan]

No. You have an adapter that provides a resistance to oil reaching the ff. It has a relief vavle. Normally this is used to route oil from the OUTLET port of the adapter ..to the inlet side of the adpater THROUGH the bp filter. This provides a differential to allow ANY flow.

In THIS installation you ARE NOT returning the oil AT THAT LOCATION (the other side of the 'resistance' nor are you returning it to the pan or valve cover, it is being returned, downstream ..beyond the FF, AT THE PRESSURE SENDER.

That is, the OUT of the permacool will be piped to the M30 ..and the "IN" of the permacool will be PLUGGED. The only reason that ANY restriction is left to the PERMACOOL is that the differential pressure of the FF (which will BE IDENTICAL TO THE DELTA P OF THE M30) may NOT be ENOUGH to move ENOUGH oil through the M30 UNTIL the ff gets a little accumulation on it.

See??

In fact, if P decides to not do this installation ...I might do it myself. I can't rob my oil flow at all ..not even 10% on my Caravan. But I can split it and divert in as long as I recombine it down stream. I will probably do it exactly as I drescribed it to P as well.

[ November 03, 2004, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[P]

Gary,

Maybe a more economical approach in terms of spending less time finding the correct sandwich adapter setup (whether it would be to drill 1/16" holes in it between the inlet and outlet ports or one 1/2" hole)for my bypass filter setup would be to do the differential pressure testing across the NEW ff filter using a FRANZ sandwich adapter(with one port plugged--you mentioned this earlier)--Haven't checked their price, though, so this may not be an economical solution.

IF the d/p with the franz adapter(or permacool adapter with 1/2" hole between inlet and outlet ports) installed is greater than 2psi with a NEW ff filter installed and the oil at normal operating temperature (what specific temp range is this?)then it's safe to say the d/p will be greater than 2psi when the oil is hot or the ff filter ages(like you said)

Then you could install the bypass filter between the outlet of the sandwich adapter and the oem pressure port(sender) with the 1/16" orifice installed and incrementally increase it if necessary until the bypass filter becomes hot(indicating flow thru it)An orifice MAY BE NEEDED so there won't be to much flow---i.e. when the ff filter becomes clogged.

IF the d/p across the NEW ff filter is LESS THAN 2 PSI with the franz sandwich adapter(or permacool adapter with a 1/2"hole between the inlet and outlet ports) then I would have to say that Ralph's M30 setup with the bypass filter between the inlet and outlet ports of the permacool sandwich adapter is preferable---I think my bypass filter setup-IF DOABLE- would generate a higher oil pressure at the oem pressure port(sender) at all oil temps and engine rpms(oil flow rates) due to there NOT BEING A PRESSURE DROP across the relief valve(and any additional holes drilled) of the permacool sandwich adapter.

Respectfully-p

 

[Gary Allan]

The Frantz, I believe, is more expensive than the Permacool. $15 from Summit or Jegs is hard to beat.

quote:

---

IF the d/p with the franz adapter(or permacool adapter with 1/2" hole between inlet and outlet ports) installed is greater than 2psi with a NEW ff filter installed and the oil at normal operating temperature (what specific temp range is this?)then it's safe to say the d/p will be greater than 2psi when the oil is hot or the ff filter ages(like you said)

---

More than likely both will have a delta P of 10 psid at start up that may be @ 2 psid @ full warm up when the oil filter is new. That's the "X" factor. You don't know what the static p/d is during normal operating conditions (somewhere between 180-200 F). This psid will naturally increase as the ff gets some miles on it.


The Frantz adapters are out of the question. They run $55-65 if I read the order sheet correctly. They do appear to be higher quality to the cast Permacool unit ..but who cares (it works for Ralph)? We filter it.

btw- Which Permacool unit do you have? Permacool.

quote:

---

IF the d/p across the NEW ff filter is LESS THAN 2 PSI with the franz sandwich adapter(or permacool adapter with a 1/2"hole between the inlet and outlet ports) then I would have to say that Ralph's M30 setup with the bypass filter between the inlet and outlet ports of the permacool sandwich adapter is preferable---I think my bypass filter setup-IF DOABLE- would generate a higher oil pressure at the oem pressure port(sender) at all oil temps and engine rpms(oil flow rates) due to there NOT BEING A PRESSURE DROP across the relief valve(and any additional holes drilled) of the permacool sandwich adapter.

---

Ralph's setup has a proven record. No two ways about it. We are dealing in the "what if" realm of installation here. Your setup, properly done, has certain advantages over the typical setup as you noted.

Which ever way you go, Good luck! This has been a great exercize in thinking outside the box. For that I thank you

PM me ...I can't PM you

PS: Here's some interesting revelations that have come to light in the past few days on another thread. Some paradigms have been shattered (for others) and some have been altered (mine). Even the more learned - learned

You've gotta love the information age!!

 

[RalphPWood]

A roll of TP can hold about 6 pounds of contamination. It is a matter of keeping the oil as clean as possible and adding enough new oil to keep the additives up and diluting the contamination that is too small to be filtered out even with a submicronic filter. How much new oil your engine needs depends on a lot of things like how hot the engine runs and how much soot is getting in the oil. With a Motor Guard you are adding about one qt at filter change.
I was driving a new Chevy pickup that belonged to a company I worked for. It had the Amsoil system and followed the Amsoil recommendations. The oil thickened up but didn't look too bad. I had to drain the oil at 60 thousand miles. The Amsoil dealer said the filter wasn't being changed enough. He said with the type of driving I was doing the filter should be changed more often and the oil should be changed every 50 thousand. I was following the mixed city and highway driving and should have been following the short trip severe service towing. I wasn't doing short trips. I was using AMO-40.
Life is full of lessons. I could have used less expensive oil changed the filter more often and never had to drain the oil and got longer engine life. Actually I thought the oil was no good but I just wasn't changing the filter enough and adding enough new oil to compensate for the oil temperature the oil was subjected to. Filter changes are just guesses. You tell someone that is driving in Dallas TX traffic that he can go 12,000 miles between filter changes you better make sure he has a good oil cooler. I have customers that extend the filter changes past recommendations then they drain the oil. They are getting clean oil and enough new oil added.
Even though the big paper towel filters can't clean oil as well as TP you ae adding a lot more oil at filter change.
When I was selling the Frantz oil cleaner I got a testimonial letter from Frantz from the Marion County, Oregon Sheriff's Department. They change the TP about every 2 to 3 thousand miles and the full flow filter about once a year. They don't drain the oil. These are high performance engines that do a lot of idling. They might need to make adjustments if they were in Dallas, TX or up north. The customer is the best judge. If you don't change the filter often enough your oil is going to get dirty. The engine might still last as long as you need for it to. I drove my 84 Subaru 240 thousand miles using Mobil 1 and changing the filter once a year or about every 12 thousand miles. The lab recommended that at that change interval I should drain the oil about every 50 thousand miles. I averaged an oil drain every 60 thousand.
I started something with the tartan tape. On a fork lift at work I unrolled 20 rounds of TP from a roll of Scott 1000 sheet and wrapped one round of Tartan 3690 tape tightly around it. It worked great. Motor Guard eliminated the lip that pulled the paper in just before the hapves come together. The lip isn't needed with their elements. TP has a tendency to pinch in the gasket as the tee handle compresses the roll. The less paper you unroll the better. The Tartan is polypropylene and can handle the oil temperature. It's about 2" box sealing tape. These filters are the ultimate do it yourself filter.
I am coming out with a filter with copper internal parts. It will seal inside the core like the other Motor Guards. I can make it seal all the way to the top but the core will grab the copper and won't let go. I think 1 or 2 inches is enough.

Ralph

 

[RalphPWood]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
First let me address this part to Ralph.
It occurred to me that I haven't been very apparent in including you in my dialoge with P in addressing your critique of this set up. This, in hind sight, could be considered "rude". This gave me a feeling not unlike the one you get when you fail to properly thank your parents for something that they've done for you gratis. I've tried to address some of your, albeit mild, objections to this set up and hopefully have given my "assumed" reasons for seeing, if not value, the viability of this installation. You're the man on these things ...but I'm sure you will agree, that no matter where we've gone, someone just may have a different approach that may have certain advantages. That is, until you get it aloft ..you don't know how it will fly. If anything, we'll learn either that this DOES work well ..or it DOES NOT work well. We'll all learn something here.

---

Some how we have turned something as simple as a sandwich adapter into a bundle of worms. I am very good at making things work but not very good at explaining things. To me if I install a sandwich adapter and the Motor Guard heats up and my oil pressure is good it works. If you don't trust the sandwich adapter hook up the bypass filter in the conventional way. On my Camry I drilled a 1/4" hole into the remote filter mount adapter which happened to be a universal 771-195 in www.jegs.com. The hole is drilled thru the wall that seperates the inlet and outlet. Then I drill the outside hole and tap it 1/8" and put a 1/8" pipe plug in it. That eliminates the full flow filter that is useless in my pristine engine. Full flow filters are for engines that generate large abrasives such as racing. If the flow wasn't enough thru the 1/4" hole I would have drilled it larger knowing that if I drill it too large there wouldn't be enough resistance to keep oil going to the Motor Guard.
With the sandwich adapter if I don't feel the relief valve is large enough I drill a 7/32" hole in the adapter to help the relief valve. It doesn't hurt to drill the adapter any way. Unless of course it is a little engine such as a lawn mower that doesn't have enough oil flow. Then you may lose all the resistance thru the hole. The relief valve in the sandwich adapter is plenty large enough for most engines. The Frantz two port sandwich adapters were similar in that if you opened them up so that they could handle a large engine with worn bearings you might not have enough resistance to handle a little engine. The spring in the Perma-Cool adapter makes the adapter more versatile. The 7/32 hole in the adapter can handle about anything. Not necessary in almost all engines. You can drill a 1/8" bypass orifice in the filter if you know what you are doing or use a ATF filter to heat up the motor oil faster in cold weather. That will only work with the sandwich adapter. There are a lot of things that you can do.

Ralph

 

[P]

"Somehow we have turned something as simple as a sandwich adapter into a bundle of worms"--RalphPWood

Nobody is trying to put a bad omen on the sandwich adapter, Ralph----We're just thinking about using it in a DIFFERENT bypass filter setup.

Gary,

No need to send me a Permacool adapter--but thanks for the offer.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

"Somehow we have turned something as simple as a sandwich adapter into a bundle of worms"--RalphPWood

Nobody is trying to put a bad omen on the sandwich adapter, Ralph----We're just thinking about using it in a DIFFERENT bypass filter setup.

---

Ralph ...you've got a great reputation

...offering a great product

, with unparalleled support

. To you ...we're attempting to reinvent the wheel

. Maybe so ...but the space shuttle didn't get off the ground since the Wright bothers had done "good enough" as brilliant and successful as they were. You don't see a need to do this ..but I think if you asked yourself ...would you say that you can't do this ..even if it is totally unnecessisary?? I often encounter many people that, in an almost rhetorical, redundant, and perfunctory manner, say "why would you want to do something like that (in the background saying " you jacka$$)?? I remind them that they don't have to worry about "why" I want to do it....I just do ... and let me worry about if it makes sense later on after I do it. It may be dumb ..it may be unwise ...it may be a waste of time ...but since you or I have NEVER done it ....neither of us has any valid reason condemning it or saying that it's a worthless endeavor.

I think that this has a use in my Caravan. I can't deal with ANY increased restriction in my oil flow ..nor can I lose any oil flow to the engine ..but I can allow it to take a detour to a high density or in depth media as long as it returns to the pressurized oiling system.

 

[RalphPWood]

All that counts is that the oil pressure at the oil pressure sending unit is the same as it was before you installed the sandwich adapter and the Motor Guard or any other bypass filter gets enough oil. I know that the relief valve in the adapter can handle all the oil the engine needs on my Camry or Subaru. Neither car has an oil pressure gauge. I suspect that the relief valve is large enough for any engine that the adapter fits that is good shape. I can't be 100% sure that there won't be an extreme case where the engine needs more than normal oil to be pressure up the oil system. The solution is easy for these engines. Reduce the resistance of the sandwich adapter by drilling the adapter. The lower the flow and pressure to the bypass filter the better the cleaning.
What I can get away with here in the Dallas, TX area you might not get away with up North. In the summer here the Motor Guard is getting hot in a mile or so. In the winter it might be starting to warm up after I have driven 20 miles to work. I put a M-30 on the bosses new Silverado 6.0 using a Flex-A-Lite 3966 adapter. It has the thermostatic relief valve. It was a hassle because the front universal joint was too close. I was afraid there might be enough engine movement to let the universal joint rip off the fittings. I made it work but almost plugged one port and returned the oil to the fill cap.
Most GM V8 engines have the stock relief valve that will open if you restrict the flow. I have gotten some reports of people installing the filters on Denalis and Escalades using the Perma-Cool universal adapters and Ford type filters. The oil will take the path of least resistance. The stock relief valve is there for a backup. The stock relief valve bypasses both filters. I sometimes yearn for the old days

when there were no sandwich adapters. All I did was American cars and an occasional Beetle. The engines weren't half up under the fire wall. You could usually see the oil pressure switch.
I am glad you guys try different things. That's who buys the filters. Almost all the filters I sell are used with the sandwich adapters. A customer told me about the Perma-Cool adapters about 10 years ago. www.jegs.com has the Flex-A-lite adapters if you ask them.

Ralph

 

[P]

"All that counts is that the oil pressure at the oil pressure sending unit is the same as it was before you installed the sandwich adapter..."
RalphPWood

Ralph--How can the oil pressure at the oil pressure sending unit be the same as before you installed the sandwich adapter(with your M30 setup)? With the Permacool sandwich adapter there will ALWAYS be a pressure drop across the inlet and outlet ports due to the relief valve(and any additional holes you drill in it) for your m30 bypass filter setup.--Right?

By the way, another alternative to running the bypass filter BETWEEN the sandwich adapter and the oil pressure port(sender)would be if there was a sandwich adapter where the inlet port connected directly to the outlet of the ff filter--I have read of a sandwich adapter having this capability in other posts--Anybody know if these are still around?

Ralph--you did bring up a good point that during winter driving that the m30 takes a relatively long time(20 miles) to heat up. This could be discouraging for anyone who takes a lot of short trips in the winter and has a bypass filter.
So what I'm proposing is that the size of the orifice in the bypass filter be increased to the point at which the bypass filter gets WARM-NOT HOT(before the oil reaches N.O.T.) This will ensure a higher flowrate thru the bypass filter in winter driving. Is this a good idea?--What exactly happens to a TP bypass filter if there is to much flow thru it?--Does it start to channel to the point where all the previously captured particles are washed thru the TP?

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

Ralph--How can the oil pressure at the oil pressure sending unit be the same as before you installed the sandwich adapter(with your M30 setup)? With the Permacool sandwich adapter there will ALWAYS be a pressure drop across the inlet and outlet ports due to the relief valve(and any additional holes you drill in it) for your m30 bypass filter setup.--Right?

---

Absolutely there is a drop ..a substantial one ..but we have the flawed perception that the sender point of reference is subordinate. It may very well, assuming no relief is employed in the oil pump, be the "commander" of this heirarchy of pressures ..and that all UPSTREAM pressures elevate to make the end result the same. Normal perceptions of pressures and flows are altered here due to two factors ..positive displacement pumps and the reactive component of oil viscosity.

That's why I suggested the "static" test just so you can get a perception that may only be possible in this manner. Fluid flow is EXACTLY like electricity. In the case of oil, however, it is also "reactive" due to varying viscosity ...that is, linear resistance is replaced with reactive impedence. The ff filter media can change radically in "apparent density" with cold oil and drop 8-11 psi itself until the bypass (ff filter relief) opens. Yet hardly any of us have ever seen our sender pressure lower due to a packed filter ..nor do we see lower pressure when the oil is cold. We in fact see higher pressure when the oil is cold since we have XX visc fluid at a given rate travelling through the same size conduit.

In short ..depending on how YOUR oil passages are setup ...until you try it ..you don't know how big an impact the mulitple resistances that you plug into the front end of this thing effect the downstream (sender) pressure. The empirical data suggests that "they" (the upstream resistances/pressures) are effected more than they effect (gosh I love expanding conceptual enlightenment).


Let's say the main oil galley itself represents a substantial resistance that negates all the impact that you're adding on the front. Due to its particular design ...and assuming our oil pump's relief is never opened ...we'll always see the exact same flow through the oil galley. XX flow through XX size conductor will yield XX pressure @ xx viscosity at that point of reference. What we don't know (probably even Ralph) is the line pressure BEHIND the Permacool that is NOW there.

The mistake that we make is assuming that your sender pressure is the MAX pressure attainable in the circuit ..and that this is the "supply" pressure. It may just be (and I would say definitely is) the "resultant" pressure of having no bypass situation in the oil pump and any upstream restrictions merely ELEVATE the upstream pressure accordingly. That is, when Ralph encounters an installation that requires drilling of the Permacool unit (which is rare) it is when he actually encounters a situation where the oil pump bypass is opening and yielding reduced flow.

(redundant rhetoric for clarity)
We're looking at the sender as a subordinate pressure indication ..while it may very well be at the top of the heirarchy and all intermediate pressures are subordinately elevated accordingly.


Gosh this has been fun working all this mental "self abuse" (nudge-nudge-say no more) here for everyone else to share.

Keep in mind here, P, that I've never taken a class room physics course and there is probably some engineer, who is quite well versed in fluid dynamics, that is quietly lurking in the background veiwing us with "parental" mild amusement ..understanding full well that he can't give us his wisdom in a short post ...but will get a little joy in seeing us explore this little trip on our own (these members are somewhat "kind" in their level of socialization). I see it all the time when the "heavy weights" don't post for a long time ..and then have some charity for the plebes and come into to assist them with something that they're struggling with.

What this all means it that Ralph is right 99% of the time ...and when he's not ..the little hole drilled is more than enough.

..and ..

..it also means that your proposed return point is JUST FINE as well.


P ...I truly THANK YOU this exercize. It's allowed me to expand my perception. The learning process never ends.

 

[mjo]

quote:

---

Fluid flow is EXACTLY like electricity

---

Do they make a bypass filter that also works as a radio??

Just kidding

 

[Gary Allan]

I should qualify that to say DC current ..but then again ...watching the waves down at the shore ...I see mesh currents, high Z (visions of two way addressable cable boxes ....)

 

[P]

"...When Ralph encounters an installation that requires drilling of the Permacool unit(which is rare) it is when he actually encounters a situation where the oil pump bypass is opening and yielding reduced flow" Gary Allan

Gary, I agree with you---but in the situation where the oil pump relief is OPEN (and I understand IT IS above a certain RPM depending on oil viscosity) Ralph's M30 bypass filter setup with the sandwich adapter will restrict the oil flow to some extent because of the relief valve(and any additional holes drilled in it)

You made an excellent point

about added restrictions not creating any problems when the the oil pump relief is closed.

I'm going to re-ask my previous questions:
Does TO MUCH flow thru a TP bypass filter wash the captured particles back into the oil? Does it cause the TP to "channel"?

 

[P]

I thought of something that might solve the problem for those of us who live in winter climates, usually drive short distances and want to get the bypass filter to heat up faster:

What about a LARGER size orifice in the bypass filter for winter?

What bypass filters would this work on?

 

[P]

Is it possible the only reason an ORIFICE is placed in a bypass filter is to restrict flow in the event the bypass filter is routed from a pressurized source to a low or no pressure area(as normally done)?
--thereby minimizing oil loss to the engine?

Maybe it stands to reason that if you are running a bypass filter setup where the return line is to the main oil pressure(no oil loss) an orifice is NOT NEEDED.

Gary, I'm trying to minimize the trial and error associated with this NEW bypass filter setup. I am warming to YOUR IDEA that the NEW bypass filter setup can be run WITHOUT AN ORIFICE. This would also ensure maximum flow through the bypass filter (i.e. during winter )

MY other rational for this is that if I use a sandwich adapter with a 1/2" hole between the inlet and outlet ports the maximum d/p across the ffilter (with the bypass open) can't be much different from the d/p across the inlet and outlet ports of the sandwich adapter in Ralph's M30 setup where he DOESN'T USE AN ORIFICE.