Yeah just watch YouTube vids. with an element of skepticism, even if they tell you the answer you're hoping to learn. There are a ton of staged vids. for Subaru AWD out there, all done under the guise of being performed by a third-party organization but were absolutely bought and paid for. Your first hint is when the Subaru comes up they use the trade name and/or logo "Symmetrical All Wheel Drive" but not for any of the others, not to mention they're usually on man-made obstacles designed to produce a particular result. Not saying Subaru AWD isn't good, quite the opposite, however it's not as Godlike as some would have you believe.
Most reliable, economic and capable AWD vehicle?
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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Subaru builds 2wd models too, just not for the NA market. The AWD specialization is a view Subaru fostered very carefully and over many years in NA. It clearly works as as they intended.
A boxer setup, while lower to the ground, has to stick out up front, over the front axle more and cannot be tucked in under the cabin and behind the front axle, like a normal I4 can be, thus give a better front/rear weight distribution.
You are talking about BRZ. That is development of Toyota and Subaru. However, per Toyota's claim Subaru never delivered power that they suppose to in that project. They are nice cars, but never had appropriate engines under.
As for specialization, yes, Subaru invests a lot in marketing. However, while they are still focusing on AWD and golden retrievers and similar stuff, it seems they now more focusing on fear mongering like: if you do not get Subaru you will hit trash truck because Subaru brakes for you or accident where "we survived thanks to our Subaru." Their marketing is pure insult to intelligence and it works. That is why I said that I would not be surprised if they further water down this brand because customers they aim at do not care about it. There are three people at my work who drive Subaru, and I asked all three what engine is under the hood. They do not know of course. One actually told me: i do not care enough to know. That is Subaru customer in 2018. Put AWD from my Toyota Sienna in it and 99% of their customer base would never notice that.
No I'm talking about other markets when even an Impreza can be had in 2wd trim.
People are simple repeating marketing nonsense with symmetrical AWD, Subaru designing their AWD systems around the boxer engine and how they are the best since they build only AWD cars, which is simply not true. But this is the view Subaru carefully crafted for the NA customers.
Regarding the symmetrical AWD, it is not all that important to have perfect weight distribution along the length axis because components don't stick out too far from it. But when you look at the front/rear axis, that's where the distance from the center is the greatest and has the most dynamic effect.
Somehow having a perfect 50 front/50 rear weight distribution, you know symmetrical, is not in Subarus marketing material. Guess what, that's because their boxer layout prevents it.
2wd Impreza in Japan
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Subaru builds 2wd models too, just not for the NA market. The AWD specialization is a view Subaru fostered very carefully and over many years in NA. It clearly works as as they intended.
A boxer setup, while lower to the ground, has to stick out up front, over the front axle more and cannot be tucked in under the cabin and behind the front axle, like a normal I4 can be, thus give a better front/rear weight distribution.
You are talking about BRZ. That is development of Toyota and Subaru. However, per Toyota's claim Subaru never delivered power that they suppose to in that project. They are nice cars, but never had appropriate engines under.
As for specialization, yes, Subaru invests a lot in marketing. However, while they are still focusing on AWD and golden retrievers and similar stuff, it seems they now more focusing on fear mongering like: if you do not get Subaru you will hit trash truck because Subaru brakes for you or accident where "we survived thanks to our Subaru." Their marketing is pure insult to intelligence and it works. That is why I said that I would not be surprised if they further water down this brand because customers they aim at do not care about it. There are three people at my work who drive Subaru, and I asked all three what engine is under the hood. They do not know of course. One actually told me: i do not care enough to know. That is Subaru customer in 2018. Put AWD from my Toyota Sienna in it and 99% of their customer base would never notice that.
No I'm talking about other markets when even an Impreza can be had in 2wd trim.
People are simple repeating marketing nonsense with symmetrical AWD, Subaru designing their AWD systems around the boxer engine and how they are the best since they build only AWD cars, which is simply not true. But this is the view Subaru carefully crafted for the NA customers.
Regarding the symmetrical AWD, it is not all that important to have perfect weight distribution along the length axis because components don't stick out too far from it. But when you look at the front/rear axis, that's where the distance from the center is the greatest and has the most dynamic effect.
Somehow having a perfect 50 front/50 rear weight distribution, you know symmetrical, is not in Subarus marketing material. Guess what, that's because their boxer layout prevents it.
2wd Impreza in Japan
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Subaru builds 2wd models too, just not for the NA market. The AWD specialization is a view Subaru fostered very carefully and over many years in NA. It clearly works as as they intended.
A boxer setup, while lower to the ground, has to stick out up front, over the front axle more and cannot be tucked in under the cabin and behind the front axle, like a normal I4 can be, thus give a better front/rear weight distribution.
You are talking about BRZ. That is development of Toyota and Subaru. However, per Toyota's claim Subaru never delivered power that they suppose to in that project. They are nice cars, but never had appropriate engines under.
As for specialization, yes, Subaru invests a lot in marketing. However, while they are still focusing on AWD and golden retrievers and similar stuff, it seems they now more focusing on fear mongering like: if you do not get Subaru you will hit trash truck because Subaru brakes for you or accident where "we survived thanks to our Subaru." Their marketing is pure insult to intelligence and it works. That is why I said that I would not be surprised if they further water down this brand because customers they aim at do not care about it. There are three people at my work who drive Subaru, and I asked all three what engine is under the hood. They do not know of course. One actually told me: i do not care enough to know. That is Subaru customer in 2018. Put AWD from my Toyota Sienna in it and 99% of their customer base would never notice that.
No I'm talking about other markets when even an Impreza can be had in 2wd trim.
People are simple repeating marketing nonsense with symmetrical AWD, Subaru designing their AWD systems around the boxer engine and how they are the best since they build only AWD cars, which is simply not true. But this is the view Subaru carefully crafted for the NA customers.
Regarding the symmetrical AWD, it is not all that important to have perfect weight distribution along the length axis because components don't stick out too far from it. But when you look at the front/rear axis, that's where the distance from the center is the greatest and has the most dynamic effect.
Somehow having a perfect 50 front/50 rear weight distribution, you know symmetrical, is not in Subarus marketing material. Guess what, that's because their boxer layout prevents it.
2wd Impreza in Japan
I missed that they now offer 2WD, I was thinking you are talking about BRZ.
I mentioned weight distribution sometimes before. Subaru is front heavy vehicle, and it would take a lot of investment to make those cars like BMW's. BMW went with transfer case precisely because they did not want to disturb that balance, unlike Audi where torsen pushes engine more forward (good actually in snow, bad when cutting corners).
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Subaru builds 2wd models too, just not for the NA market. The AWD specialization is a view Subaru fostered very carefully and over many years in NA. It clearly works as as they intended.
A boxer setup, while lower to the ground, has to stick out up front, over the front axle more and cannot be tucked in under the cabin and behind the front axle, like a normal I4 can be, thus give a better front/rear weight distribution.
You are talking about BRZ. That is development of Toyota and Subaru. However, per Toyota's claim Subaru never delivered power that they suppose to in that project. They are nice cars, but never had appropriate engines under.
As for specialization, yes, Subaru invests a lot in marketing. However, while they are still focusing on AWD and golden retrievers and similar stuff, it seems they now more focusing on fear mongering like: if you do not get Subaru you will hit trash truck because Subaru brakes for you or accident where "we survived thanks to our Subaru." Their marketing is pure insult to intelligence and it works. That is why I said that I would not be surprised if they further water down this brand because customers they aim at do not care about it. There are three people at my work who drive Subaru, and I asked all three what engine is under the hood. They do not know of course. One actually told me: i do not care enough to know. That is Subaru customer in 2018. Put AWD from my Toyota Sienna in it and 99% of their customer base would never notice that.
No I'm talking about other markets when even an Impreza can be had in 2wd trim.
People are simple repeating marketing nonsense with symmetrical AWD, Subaru designing their AWD systems around the boxer engine and how they are the best since they build only AWD cars, which is simply not true. But this is the view Subaru carefully crafted for the NA customers.
Regarding the symmetrical AWD, it is not all that important to have perfect weight distribution along the length axis because components don't stick out too far from it. But when you look at the front/rear axis, that's where the distance from the center is the greatest and has the most dynamic effect.
Somehow having a perfect 50 front/50 rear weight distribution, you know symmetrical, is not in Subarus marketing material. Guess what, that's because their boxer layout prevents it.
2wd Impreza in Japan
I missed that they now offer 2WD, I was thinking you are talking about BRZ.
I mentioned weight distribution sometimes before. Subaru is front heavy vehicle, and it would take a lot of investment to make those cars like BMW's. BMW went with transfer case precisely because they did not want to disturb that balance, unlike Audi where torsen pushes engine more forward (good actually in snow, bad when cutting corners).
Originally Posted by badtlc
Originally Posted by edyvw
Not sure how Audi is in same sentence with Mazda and KIA when it comes to AWD.
I'm not sure about KIA but Mazda's AWD did take down subaru in some snow test in colorado last year. There are videos on Youtube.
I took down Subaru with FWD CC in snow, here in CO, over pass right before Winter Park during blizzard. Reason? Tires!
Put serious winter tires on decent vehicle, and AWD with mediocre tires will struggle against it. Not as much pulling forward, as not being able to brake later, handling etc.
Going forward is optional, stopping is not. Those videos are ridiculous and anyone can stage them.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Not sure how Audi is in same sentence with Mazda and KIA when it comes to AWD.
I'm not sure about KIA but Mazda's AWD did take down subaru in some snow test in colorado last year. There are videos on Youtube.
I took down Subaru with FWD CC in snow, here in CO, over pass right before Winter Park during blizzard. Reason? Tires!
Put serious winter tires on decent vehicle, and AWD with mediocre tires will struggle against it. Not as much pulling forward, as not being able to brake later, handling etc.
Going forward is optional, stopping is not. Those videos are ridiculous and anyone can stage them.
Good posts above. I'd think, for buster (the OP here) to drive on sand, he'd need locking diffs.
Ground clearance. Tires as knobby as possible. Wide tires.
In the RAV4 size class like buster mentioned, I'd go with the Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk on it's 245/65-17 tires.
Trade out the stock Firestones for these:
![[Linked Image]](https://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/bfg/bfg_attako2_sr190.jpg "[Linked Image]")
Note as a Jeep, it has the Selec-Terrain dial which gives you a locking rear diff at least, and you could try it's sand/mud mode too.
Also, like my '18 Equinox, it idles the driveshaft when on regular roads for fuel economy.
Ground clearance. Tires as knobby as possible. Wide tires.
In the RAV4 size class like buster mentioned, I'd go with the Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk on it's 245/65-17 tires.
Trade out the stock Firestones for these:
Note as a Jeep, it has the Selec-Terrain dial which gives you a locking rear diff at least, and you could try it's sand/mud mode too.
Also, like my '18 Equinox, it idles the driveshaft when on regular roads for fuel economy.
Having owned two Outbacks, and an Impreza, and now a CX-5, I know first-hand that Subaru is not the best for MPG. They are a smaller manufacturer, and are doing their best by implementing lower powered engines and CVT's.
The CVT's hold a lot of oil, and when it's cold, MPG suffers a LOT. I commuted 40 miles one way, and get better mileage driving my CX-5 on a two mile trip, than I did in the Impreza on my commute. Drive over 60ish, and MPG falls more than I expected. (The CX-5 starts its downhill run after 65 MPH, too).
The Forester is a sharp-edged box, with the expected aerodynamics.
Subaru has its place in the market. It's not at the top.
Oh-and I drove an Audi A4 with haldex for 5 years. Handling was heavy, and once in a slide, you were along for the ride. Might be great in a lightweight purpose-built rally car, they certainly dominated there...
The three Subies had one common trait. Massive straight-line stability in deep rutted wet slippery snow. I passed many, many people who I'm sure swore at me, and expected me to die. I haven't, not yet!
The CVT's hold a lot of oil, and when it's cold, MPG suffers a LOT. I commuted 40 miles one way, and get better mileage driving my CX-5 on a two mile trip, than I did in the Impreza on my commute. Drive over 60ish, and MPG falls more than I expected. (The CX-5 starts its downhill run after 65 MPH, too).
The Forester is a sharp-edged box, with the expected aerodynamics.
Subaru has its place in the market. It's not at the top.
Oh-and I drove an Audi A4 with haldex for 5 years. Handling was heavy, and once in a slide, you were along for the ride. Might be great in a lightweight purpose-built rally car, they certainly dominated there...
The three Subies had one common trait. Massive straight-line stability in deep rutted wet slippery snow. I passed many, many people who I'm sure swore at me, and expected me to die. I haven't, not yet!
Diahatsu Mira.
- AWD
- TURBO
- Manual
- JDM
- MightyCarMods approved.
- AWD
- TURBO
- Manual
- JDM
- MightyCarMods approved.
I've driven my 2004 Forester XT with 225/55/17 summer tires and an aluminum skidplate at Island Beach State Park since ~2004 as well as a couple of trips to Corolla in the OBX. The sand at IBSP is very deep and gets soft and sugary, especially at the entrances. In all of that time I never had any problems that I could not get myself out of by only airing down a bit more (ok one of those times a guy walking with his kid gave me a bare-handed push at the entrance). I've also driven past stuck Jeeps in Corolla that probably did not air down.
On one hand there are times that I wished that I had an automatic to make it a bit easier while driving, but I think the viscous coupling's standard 50/50 torque split beats a lot of Subaru's when it comes to driving on the sand.
As to the "modern" Subaru's, a guy that I know was told by a dealer salesperson that just returned from the new Forester training that X-Mode should not be used in deep sand as it "confuses" X-Mode. Although there are a number of posts as well as some videos posted on the Forester board where drivers had no problems (with traction control off). It's also interesting that the new Forester will come with a dual mode X-Mode that includes deep mud so I'm curious to know how that will perform in the sand. The Aussies generally hit the beach with Subies more so than we do so have a look at owners down under.
I feel the Crosstrek is underpowered for deep sand, although I know of at least one lifted Crosstrek in Long Island that regularly hits the beach. But if the sand you'll be in is not that deep, then the Crosstrek or Forester (or the new RAV4) would probably be fine. I'm sure there will be some guinea pigs out there testing the new Forester and RAV4 very soon.
I would probably only trust Subaru or Toyota for reliability but cars today aren't the same as they used to be. Not sure how the new RAV4 will look in person, but I like the Forester Sport much more than the over chromed Limited and Touring models. Of course, it's difficult to find a true "Swiss Army Knife" car and a Tacoma would probably outperform anything I mentioned, although fuel economy and handling would take a hit compared to the others.
A dealer near me actually sells lifted Outbacks, Crosstreks, and Foresters.
On one hand there are times that I wished that I had an automatic to make it a bit easier while driving, but I think the viscous coupling's standard 50/50 torque split beats a lot of Subaru's when it comes to driving on the sand.
As to the "modern" Subaru's, a guy that I know was told by a dealer salesperson that just returned from the new Forester training that X-Mode should not be used in deep sand as it "confuses" X-Mode. Although there are a number of posts as well as some videos posted on the Forester board where drivers had no problems (with traction control off). It's also interesting that the new Forester will come with a dual mode X-Mode that includes deep mud so I'm curious to know how that will perform in the sand. The Aussies generally hit the beach with Subies more so than we do so have a look at owners down under.
I feel the Crosstrek is underpowered for deep sand, although I know of at least one lifted Crosstrek in Long Island that regularly hits the beach. But if the sand you'll be in is not that deep, then the Crosstrek or Forester (or the new RAV4) would probably be fine. I'm sure there will be some guinea pigs out there testing the new Forester and RAV4 very soon.
A dealer near me actually sells lifted Outbacks, Crosstreks, and Foresters.
Originally Posted by bobdoo
Having owned two Outbacks, and an Impreza, and now a CX-5, I know first-hand that Subaru is not the best for MPG. They are a smaller manufacturer, and are doing their best by implementing lower powered engines and CVT's.
The CVT's hold a lot of oil, and when it's cold, MPG suffers a LOT. I commuted 40 miles one way, and get better mileage driving my CX-5 on a two mile trip, than I did in the Impreza on my commute. Drive over 60ish, and MPG falls more than I expected. (The CX-5 starts its downhill run after 65 MPH, too).
The Forester is a sharp-edged box, with the expected aerodynamics.
Subaru has its place in the market. It's not at the top.
Oh-and I drove an Audi A4 with haldex for 5 years. Handling was heavy, and once in a slide, you were along for the ride. Might be great in a lightweight purpose-built rally car, they certainly dominated there...
The three Subies had one common trait. Massive straight-line stability in deep rutted wet slippery snow. I passed many, many people who I'm sure swore at me, and expected me to die. I haven't, not yet!
When people are referring to Audi Quattro, they referring to Torsen, not Haldex.
Audi with Haldex is nothing but pinned up VW.
Having owned two Outbacks, and an Impreza, and now a CX-5, I know first-hand that Subaru is not the best for MPG. They are a smaller manufacturer, and are doing their best by implementing lower powered engines and CVT's.
The CVT's hold a lot of oil, and when it's cold, MPG suffers a LOT. I commuted 40 miles one way, and get better mileage driving my CX-5 on a two mile trip, than I did in the Impreza on my commute. Drive over 60ish, and MPG falls more than I expected. (The CX-5 starts its downhill run after 65 MPH, too).
The Forester is a sharp-edged box, with the expected aerodynamics.
Subaru has its place in the market. It's not at the top.
Oh-and I drove an Audi A4 with haldex for 5 years. Handling was heavy, and once in a slide, you were along for the ride. Might be great in a lightweight purpose-built rally car, they certainly dominated there...
The three Subies had one common trait. Massive straight-line stability in deep rutted wet slippery snow. I passed many, many people who I'm sure swore at me, and expected me to die. I haven't, not yet!
When people are referring to Audi Quattro, they referring to Torsen, not Haldex.
Audi with Haldex is nothing but pinned up VW.
Originally Posted by bobdoo
The CVT's hold a lot of oil, and when it's cold, MPG suffers a LOT.
It's not the CVT, it's the heater (more precisely, the ECU and TCU programming when the heater is on).
Turn off the heater and MPG in the winter is little different to MPG in the summer. Turn it on, and the engine rpms increase dramatically, trashing fuel economy.
Edit: and, by 'winter', I mean long stretches from -10 to -40C. Though you pretty much have to turn the heater on below -20 or the windows frost up.
The CVT's hold a lot of oil, and when it's cold, MPG suffers a LOT.
It's not the CVT, it's the heater (more precisely, the ECU and TCU programming when the heater is on).
Turn off the heater and MPG in the winter is little different to MPG in the summer. Turn it on, and the engine rpms increase dramatically, trashing fuel economy.
Edit: and, by 'winter', I mean long stretches from -10 to -40C. Though you pretty much have to turn the heater on below -20 or the windows frost up.
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This ^
Since you said most reliable, economical and capable that knocks out pretty much everything made Subaru, GM, Chrysler/Jeep, Ford, anything from Germany ah heck, everything except Toyota. I've been rocking a 3.5L Rav4 around. What a little beast it is. Locking 4wd. 27mpg highway. Low 20s on average. Rips off the line and will do close to 140 mph.
Originally Posted by DaRider34
Suprised nobody mentioned the sh-awd from acura, since it can actually torque vector by sending most of the power to either wheels, versus the brake vectoring
Best AWD system I've encountered, and yes I've driven a Subaru in the snow.
Suprised nobody mentioned the sh-awd from acura, since it can actually torque vector by sending most of the power to either wheels, versus the brake vectoring
Best AWD system I've encountered, and yes I've driven a Subaru in the snow.
I skimmed through this thread quickly and may have missed it, but I don't think there was any mention of the Mitsubishi Outlander. I have no experience with them (nor with anything else in the thread) so I'm only asking if it belongs in the conversation.
I'm just getting started with looking into such vehicles as a second vehicle to my pickup truck. I've watched a few video reviews on the Outlander and it gets mixed reviews, but it seems like a decent value. There's nothing outstanding about it, though.
I thought maybe an Outlander GT with a pretty good AWD system, V6 and traditional auto trans might work for me. The warranty is very good (if they honor it). Again, I'm only looking into it and don't really know anything from experience.
I'm just getting started with looking into such vehicles as a second vehicle to my pickup truck. I've watched a few video reviews on the Outlander and it gets mixed reviews, but it seems like a decent value. There's nothing outstanding about it, though.
I thought maybe an Outlander GT with a pretty good AWD system, V6 and traditional auto trans might work for me. The warranty is very good (if they honor it). Again, I'm only looking into it and don't really know anything from experience.
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