Modern Germany and WW2

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: chiks
No disrespect intended, but it is best to forget the past, and look to the future.

If you forget the past, you're bound to repeat it at some point in the future.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh

So where were the "millions" Overkill? Your posts seem rather irresponsible and bordering on trolling here!


You seem rather irate to be participating in a civil discussion on this topic......

I very clearly said that those were the numbers HE cited in the folder of info he had. And I do recall it listing something of an estimate of 1.2 million people based on the number of people that left the camps.

In my own reading on the topic, again, I did see much higher death rates listed from certain sources. This is obviously a very uncomfortable topic for you for whatever reason, but if you'd like to continue discussing it, I'd appreciate it if you toned it down a few notches and refrain from calling me a troll. I'm anything but.

Now, back on topic, what I find interesting is that when I first mentioned this subject (millions of detained Germans in camps) I was told by Spazdog:

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
That's not true.

German Prisoners of war captured in Africa were sent to Texas (Geneva Convention. They have to be moved to a similar climate)


And by Win:

Originally Posted By: Win
We didn't have millions of German prisoners.


Yet clearly, the history on the topic of The Rheinwiesenlager and DEF's shows that we certainly DID have millions of Germans in camps (19 camps). And while we can certainly argue about how many of them starved to death or died due to disease (it is certainly quite possible that my old Luftwaffe buddy has used some generous numbers to bolster his argument), the fact of the matter is that I've had two people in this very thread tell me that what I mentioned didn't happen, when it clearly did.

And I think that this is something we should discuss, since the topic of deniers and the like has been mentioned in this thread.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: skyship
They sound like brain washed East Germans. I live in Germany and have never heard any German say the Russians were better than the Americans or that the US POW camps were bad.
A lot of German POW died in Russian camps and the statistics for those captured at Stalingrad do show what happened after that battle.
The German POW in US camps were released after the end of WW2, BUT most of the Germans in Russian camps were not released for some years and were used for forced labor projects.

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I find this odd:

Our aged parts delivery guy, Johann, was a submariner in WWII [Germany].
He actually likes the Russians, and resents the Americans!
When he went home after the war, he said the Americans took over his home, and others.
He made his way over to the USA then.

It makes me wonder about what the generally accepted history really is.


I've heard a similar story from one of my WWII era German buddies (served in the Junior Luftwaffe). Said the Russians weren't that bad, but that the US "detainment" camps were where many millions of German POW's were starved to death.


I'm not denying that. He was just a young boy remember, and his first hand account was that they really weren't that bad. Maybe in his village that was the case?

 

[mpvue]

point of view is a funny thing, and not always 'reliable'. one person's recollection may be completely different than accepted history, but both may not be completely accurate.
when I was in Ukraine, the tour guide showed us some Soviet era monuments; one of them was to commemorate hundreds of years of Russian-Ukrainian cooperation.
she says 'big joke, no?'
Ukrainian nationalism was plain to see, and they chafed under Russian control.
that was in '93.
presently, I know a young Ukrainian woman who has a deli I go to (awesome food BTW)and she will alternately say she is Ukrainian or Russian.
when I asked her about this, she just says 'oh, it's really all the same'.
really?
but who am I to argue, she is FROM there! but there are obviously different points of view.
of topic I guess, but it agrees with what I'm reading, some will feel an affinity for one side or the other, that is their reality.

 

[javacontour]

What Pearl Harbor did was remove any remaining reluctance to enter the war. IIRC, much of the US was still thinking in isolationist terms. Roosevelt was walking a fine political line as there were as many (if not more) who said these wars are not our wars.

Once Pearl Harbor was bombed, the public sentiment changed, literally overnight and we were in it to win it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
What Pearl Harbor did was remove any remaining reluctance to enter the war. IIRC, much of the US was still thinking in isolationist terms. Roosevelt was walking a fine political line as there were as many (if not more) who said these wars are not our wars.

Once Pearl Harbor was bombed, the public sentiment changed, literally overnight and we were in it to win it.


Well stated

 

[javacontour]

Yeah, but not because the Brits were any better. Een with the Norden bomb sight, it was still nearly impossible to precisely bomb even under ideal conditions.

Now add in FLAK and weary bomb crews who often just wanted to make it back to base and who knows where the bombs fell.

It came down to the lead plane finding the right target and putting the bombs on the target. The other planes followed his lead. If he got it wrong, so did everyone else.

Heavy bombing was still a relatively new technology during WWII so the term precision is a relative term.

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: cjcride
US Air Force bombed the nazi's by daylight which was far more dangerous yet far more precise than the British bombing by night.


I think studies showed that notion to be largely bogus, and that the RAF night raids were as accurate if not more so...

 

[chiks]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: chiks
No disrespect intended, but it is best to forget the past, and look to the future.

If you forget the past, you're bound to repeat it at some point in the future.


and if you keep looking at the past, someone will be inspired to do exactly the same, all over again.

As they teach in Driver's Ed. You automatically go where you are looking.

 

[chiks]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
What Pearl Harbor did was remove any remaining reluctance to enter the war. IIRC, much of the US was still thinking in isolationist terms. Roosevelt was walking a fine political line as there were as many (if not more) who said these wars are not our wars.

Once Pearl Harbor was bombed, the public sentiment changed, literally overnight and we were in it to win it.


that is just like me.

I never get myself caught in any fight, be it with friends or family or work or otherwise. But If they drag me in, they just made a big mistake.

 

[tribocessive]

left wing professor thinking aside, i see a lot of similarities between socialism, national socialism and communism; what is categorically wrong is to label any thinking that is right of center as nazi; the germans and russians were fighting each other because their ideas were so similar; they now fail to preserve artifacts as a form of political denial.

 

[yonyon]

Originally Posted By: chiks

and if you keep looking at the past, someone will be inspired to do exactly the same, all over again.

As they teach in Driver's Ed. You automatically go where you are looking.


That may work fine for horses and cattle, but humans don't automatically go where they're looking. We also don't consider any terrible event that's happened in the past and try to recreate it because, "Hey, if it was bad the first time it'll surely be better if we do it again!"

 

[eljefino]

I look at politics as nonlinear, it could be circular in shape or something else. Find a nut on the far "left" and "right" and they have more to agree on than you'd first think.

Appreciate this thread's civility. Learning some anecdotes. Noone had clean hands. If one has a personal grievance that's fine but as nations we signed armistices, had war trials and are getting on with things.

As a moment in time we had movie film which wasn't instantly distributable but is archival. Much footage wasn't released until after the war or was only shown for training. We did have live radio broadcasts and newspapers were at the peak of their game. Viet Nam had nightly news videotape on TV and involved the public much differently.

 

[uc50ic4more]

Originally Posted By: tribocessive
left wing professor thinking aside, i see a lot of similarities between socialism, national socialism and communism;


Oh boy... Threads get locked so easily, but I have *got* to hear this. Please explain.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: mpvue
if anything, this discussion shows that every culture has at one time or another, oppressed another.

no one is innocent.



The truth, sadly enough.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: chiks
True that. I always find it humorous that movies depict 5 people going back behind enemy lines, 4 being shot down in the process, so that they can save the 1 POW, all in the name of no man left behind.


Exactly, if this 1 POW is so important that it is worth risking 5 people's life to save, he should stay AWAY from hostile situation to begin with and not sent to the front line.

What if he is Prince Harry you said? I'm not sure if publicity wise it would be better for the Royal house of Windsor to sacrifice multiple other lives to save Harry if he was caught, or if they request Harry to be treated the same way as a regular private Joe (no special rescue mission).

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Originally Posted By: tribocessive
nazism, national socialism, was a left wing movement;


No no no no no no no no. This is the exact opposite of correct. Where do you hear these things?! For Pete's sake, the Nazi's second-most hunted enemy were the Kommunisten - communists! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

National socialism is pretty much the benchmark, textbook definition of right wing fascism; and has zero to do with anything left-wing. Even the word "socialism" was commandeered fraudulently to capitalize on its popularity at the time. Fascism is the exact opposite of socialism.




THANK YOU!!!!

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Originally Posted By: tribocessive
left wing professor thinking aside, i see a lot of similarities between socialism, national socialism and communism;


Oh boy... Threads get locked so easily, but I have *got* to hear this. Please explain.


Yes, tribo, I'm usually in agreement with you on oil related topics, but THIS I've also got to hear.

 

[mechtech2]

Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
And YES, I had tried to edit and revise this post, (but was told it was too late), to include those who commit the (more) modern day horrors in Darfur, Cambodia, and elsewhere, as well as the past ones in the middle east, eastern Europe, and Nanking/Manchuria.


I have some First Nations (native people in Canada; you call them "Indians") friends here who are well acquainted with the concept of "holocaust". It must be horrific beyond words to have a brutal, ruthless, arrogant, greedy, inhumane force enter your homeland and engage in wholesale atrocity.


I love how people's own atrocities and horrific behaviour is unmentioned. Look deeper and see worse.

 

[javacontour]

But the wiki linked above discredits this when it discusses Hitler's disdain of capitalism.

From my perspective, the Nazi party looks far more socialist than it does capitalist and the Wiki seems to support that observation.

 

[uc50ic4more]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
But the wiki linked above discredits this when it discusses Hitler's disdain of capitalism.


How does this discredit that "fascism is the exact opposite of socialism"? That statement is a fairly obvious one. I realize that billions of dollars and years and years have been spent in media and school demonizing socialism in the U.S. but this is "Politics 101" stuff.

(uc50ic4more crosses fingers, shuts eyes and holds breath hoping he has not gotten thread closed...)

Originally Posted By: javacontour
From my perspective, the Nazi party looks far more socialist than it does capitalist and the Wiki seems to support that observation.


How?