Mobil1 0w30 AFE | 3,900 miles | 94 Acura Integra GSR

[OVERKILL]

I disagree, but to each his own. Also, I see this is a timing belt engine, with an Al block. The iron is high in my opinion as well.

What would your interpretation of this UOA be then:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/mobil-1-0w-40-20588kms-mercedes-benz-clk-m271.100579/

?

 

[KEVINK0000]

What would your interpretation of this UOA be then:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/mobil-1-0w-40-20588kms-mercedes-benz-clk-m271.100579/

?

Just a quick look, my guess for higher metals would be mainly corrosion, esp. the iron.

 

[OVERKILL]

Just a quick look, my guess for higher metals would be mainly corrosion, esp. the iron.

Read through the rest of the thread

For reference, the OP in that thread is Doug Hillary, who wrote the article on UOA's featured on the main page of this site and has millions (probably 10's of millions) of kilometres of UOA experience spanning a huge array of equipment.

 

[KEVINK0000]

Read through the rest of the thread

For reference, the OP in that thread is Doug Hillary, who wrote the article on UOA's featured on the main page of this site and has millions (probably 10's of millions) of kilometres of UOA experience spanning a huge array of equipment

I did, what am i missing?

 

[OVERKILL]

I did, what am i missing?

He's not at all concerned about the numbers and considers them "normal".

 

[KEVINK0000]

He's not at all concerned about the numbers and considers them "normal".

OK, understood, I can see his POV in that example. I have a different opinion, and my idea of break-in/run is also different. I have found a few more discussions with him cited, who obviously has a vast store of experience that I don't have, which I am going to read up on more.

However, the case of the OP car in this thread does not apply to that thread that you linked, at all, in my view. My thoughts on the OP's engine are still the same.

 

[OVERKILL]

OK, understood, I can see his POV in that example. I have a different opinion, and my idea of break-in/run is also different. I have found a few more discussions with him cited, who obviously has a vast store of experience that I don't have, which I am going to read up on more.

However, the case of the OP car in this thread does not apply to that thread that you linked, at all, in my view. My thoughts on the OP's engine are still the same.

Yes, he (@Doug Hillary ) is a wealth of knowledge on UOA's, likely having more experience with them than everyone else on here combined. Very much an SME on the topic.

I'm not personally alarmed by the OP's #'s, given the track use. I'd like to see a few similar runs without that usage profile to see if the numbers are tracking up or down.

Also, perhaps worth mentioning, if you look at his 370,000 run, silicon jumped, along with a bump in copper and the appearance of lead. This may indicate dirt ingestion (perhaps a poorly fitting air filter, or some other intake tract leak) which resulted in a small particle streak in a bearing (which isn't uncommon). If those continue to trend down, that's typically what that points to.

 

[KEVINK0000]

Yes, he (@Doug Hillary ) is a wealth of knowledge on UOA's, likely having more experience with them than everyone else on here combined. Very much an SME on the topic.

I'm not personally alarmed by the OP's #'s, given the track use. I'd like to see a few similar runs without that usage profile to see if the numbers are tracking up or down.

Also, perhaps worth mentioning, if you look at his 370,000 run, silicon jumped, along with a bump in copper and the appearance of lead. This may indicate dirt ingestion (perhaps a poorly fitting air filter, or some other intake tract leak) which resulted in a small particle streak in a bearing (which isn't uncommon). If those continue to trend down, that's typically what that points to.

I saw that, and largely discounted it as a reason since AL was constant, unless dirt got in during one of the many top-ups. Again, this report shows to me something worth investigating further, not running it as is until doing so, esp. since money was spent to freshen the head. This is a loose engine, if healthy these should be low numbers overall with near zero bearing metals. If a one time event, the bearing metals at 370 should largely be gone now. I believe the problem, whatever it is, persists but just not as acutely as at 370. It could be something as simple as a tired oil pump or loose drainback or pressure valve that allows dry (or almost dry) starts. But, I will bet money those bottom end bearings are ready to be replaced. Since the OP freshened the head, it makes sense to look at the block now as well.

 

[OVERKILL]

I saw that, and largely discounted it as a reason since AL was constant, unless dirt got in during one of the many top-ups.

Definitely a possibility, I certainly wouldn't discount it being from contamination, I think the silicon is a tell.

Again, this report shows to me something worth investigating further, not running it as is until doing so, esp. since money was spent to freshen the head. This is a loose engine, if healthy these should be low numbers overall with near zero bearing metals.

Remember though, we are talking parts per million, bearing metals are low. What we did briefly see spike was silicon, followed by a small uptick in bearing metals.

If a one time event, the bearing metals at 370 should largely be gone now.

I disagree, it depends on the size of streak and how long it took to smooth out.

I believe the problem, whatever it is, persists but just not as acutely as at 370. It could be something as simple as a tired oil pump or loose drainback or pressure valve that allows dry (or almost dry) starts.

Well, this, and some inference of bearing health, can be gleaned from oil pressure readings. I wonder if he has a gauge?

But, I will bet money those bottom end bearings are ready to be replaced. Since the OP freshened the head, it makes sense to look at the block now as well.

I don't think anybody is arguing they are mint at this level of mileage, but I'm also not willing to condemn them as being worn out. The levels we are seeing are quite low, and did appear to be trending down after the 370K high silicon interval. If we had oil pressure, it would give us some more insight into the condition of the bottom end.

Another thing that may be of some value is an oil filter autopsy, to see if there is visible metal debris, and whether it is magnetic or not, or if it's clearly bearing material (copper).

 

[Brons2]

I very much hope to be wrong in this case, believe me. But, bike engines with factory 16k redlines don't shed any bearing metal, and that's when they are new and tight. Honda's own auto engines with higher redlines and higher power densities and piston speeds do not shed metal either. This engine should be very very loose and show less metal, not more. Also, in my opinion, if all the UOA over the car's history looked like the series posted, it would never have gotten to this high mileage.

To the OP: I thought more about this, and if this were mine, I would drop the pan and take a look at a couple of the rod bearings. I think you will find some bad news. You might see enough to make a good decision just in the bottom of the pan. But, its also good news that you would prevent any damage to the new head from catastrophic failure of the bottom end.

You need a re-calibration. Condemnation limits are usually in the hundreds of parts per million.

OP, please do not listen to this guy.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Never like this oil in the past, I have no need for a 0W, haven't run it in way over a decade. Of course I am confident the blend and DP has changed many times.
The UOA doesn't show anything of concern. Failing engine parts are in the pan bottom, pickup screen and filter pleats. If you want to know wear, wash down the filter media into a petri and evap and weight it along with the DP magnet detritus.

Beautiful solid car - and likely the best driving hot hatch ever designed. The only Honda product I ever really liked.

- Ken

 

[KEVINK0000]

Definitely a possibility, I certainly wouldn't discount it being from contamination, I think the silicon is a tell.

Remember though, we are talking parts per million, bearing metals are low. What we did briefly see spike was silicon, followed by a small uptick in bearing metals.

I disagree, it depends on the size of streak and how long it took to smooth out.

Well, this, and some inference of bearing health, can be gleaned from oil pressure readings. I wonder if he has a gauge?

I don't think anybody is arguing they are mint at this level of mileage, but I'm also not willing to condemn them as being worn out. The levels we are seeing are quite low, and did appear to be trending down after the 370K high silicon interval. If we had oil pressure, it would give us some more insight into the condition of the bottom end.

Another thing that may be of some value is an oil filter autopsy, to see if there is visible metal debris, and whether it is magnetic or not, or if it's clearly bearing material (copper).

Well, we differ, and that's OK. Not the first time, right? My point, which I do not think is unreasonable at all, is to take a look in the bottom end of that engine. If the bearing metal was not present in such quantity in the current and previous UOA, I would take the view that it's fine and run it. But that is not the case. It would likely take under an hour to drop the pan in that car, less man-hours than we have all spent reading and responding to this thread. Also, I'm almost 100% sure that the oil pan was sealed with Hondabond in '94, and it could use a freshening at the very least!

 

[KEVINK0000]

You need a re-calibration. Condemnation limits are usually in the hundreds of parts per million.

OP, please do not listen to this guy.

Spoken with such authority! I'm sure the engine will stay together long enough to conveniently give you that UOA.

 

[KEVINK0000]

Never like this oil in the past, I have no need for a 0W, haven't run it in way over a decade. Of course I am confident the blend and DP has changed many times.
The UOA doesn't show anything of concern. Failing engine parts are in the pan bottom, pickup screen and filter pleats. If you want to know wear, wash down the filter media into a petri and evap and weight it along with the DP magnet detritus.

Beautiful solid car - and likely the best driving hot hatch ever designed. The only Honda product I ever really liked.

- Ken

Failed parts end up in the oil pan. I am willing to bet the oil filter and previous drains also show larger particles that are not in the UOA. But again, I don't know why it's controversial to drop the pan and know for sure, esp at this mileage. It's a quick job.

 

[aquariuscsm]

A 1994 car with almost 400,000 miles on it, I say your uoa looks great!

 

[Brons2]

Spoken with such authority! I'm sure the engine will stay together long enough to conveniently give you that UOA.

I really can't recall another time that someone around here had suggested a bottom end rebuild based solely on a UOA. The only reason I'd take an engine apart based on an UOA is if it was indicating coolant in the oil.

If it also had low oil pressure, unusual noises or burned a lot of oil I might agree with you. But barring those, I don't think it's good advice to rebuild the bottom end based on the UOA.

 

[PatrickGSR94]

Given the usage profile, the report looks just fine. I was a bit shocked by the 1.8 quarts of make-up oil, but then saw you mention that it has numerous leaks.

I wouldn't call it numerous. I've found a little oil around the factory oil vapor box area, where the PCV valve lives. I have some replacement hoses and fittings to install, as soon as I have time to get access to the area. There also may be a bit leaking from the oil cooler sandwich plate at the filter, and possibly a little from the oil pan. Oil pan gasket is a Fel-Pro, but I may try something different soon.

Are you topping off with a different oil? This UOA does not look like AFE 0W30. Calcium, Boron and Zinc are way too high and TBN is way too low for 3900 miles.

Always using M1 0w30. I may have used a quart of the ESP flavor once this last time, by mistake, instead of the normal AFE version.

 

[PatrickGSR94]

Treat her to a repaint

yep that's in the plans, but probably not for another 1-2 years down the road.

Although I agree with you, a loose (old) engine will produce more metal vs when everything was tight and new because the parts now have some play in them and this aids in wear as things vibrate.

Also, the OP stated this is the original drivetrain at 381k miles (never rebuilt) at the top of his post but then proceeds to tell us a story about how he rebuilt the head at 330k when the head gasket blew.

Ummm… that’s not how it works.

I had the head surfaced, and the valve seals replaced. Not exactly what I would call a "rebuilt head". It's still using all the original valves, springs, camshafts, rocker arms, cam caps and everything else in there.

 

[PatrickGSR94]

Valvetrain from about 7K miles ago

And a pic from this past weekend after a wash

 

[KEVINK0000]

I really can't recall another time that someone around here had suggested a bottom end rebuild based solely on a UOA. The only reason I'd take an engine apart based on an UOA is if it was indicating coolant in the oil.

If it also had low oil pressure, unusual noises or burned a lot of oil I might agree with you. But barring those, I don't think it's good advice to rebuild the bottom end based on the UOA.

" suggested a bottom end rebuild based solely on a UOA"


Well, that's not what I said.