What's the pricing like on Ti-DTC, compared to traditional additives?
Mobil Super 5000 5w30 SN/GF5
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Titanium Dioxide is very cheap. I believe it is a form of TiO2 that is being used in oils.
Titanium and Tungsten are the newest AW additives but are in the form of dithiocarbamates or DTC's, not the dioxides.
As ZDDP is reduced, you will see more exotic AW additives introduced.
Thanks!
Quote:
Titanium Dioxide is very cheap. I believe it is a form of TiO2 that is being used in oils.
Titanium and Tungsten are the newest AW additives but are in the form of dithiocarbamates or DTC's, not the dioxides.
As ZDDP is reduced, you will see more exotic AW additives introduced.
Thanks!
I running this now and it seems to be OK afa mileage and smoothness goes. Got 2mpg improvement over Pennzoil conventional SN.
This is from the Tiarco Chemical website (hope this is allowed here):
Octopol Grease & Lubricant Dithiocarbamates
Click on a product name to see the technical data sheet
Octopol AD Antimony Dialkyldithiocarbamate
Used as a corrosion inhibitor, antioxidant, friction reducer and antiscuff additive. Excellent extreme pressure and anti-wear additive in lubricating greases. A low ash additive compatible with greases, industrial and automotive gear oils.
Octopol AZ Zinc Dialkyldithiocarbamate
Used in petroleum products as an oxidation inhibitor, metal deactivator, anti-wear agent and bearing corrosion inhibitor.
Octopol AD-I Antimony Dithiocarbamate
Sulfurized Olefin Blend Used as an extreme pressure and anti- wear additive with good oxidation inhibiting properties. A general purpose non-lead additive compatible with petroleum oil and greases.
Octopol PTB Potassium Triborate in Oil
PTB offers extreme anti-wear, antioxidant protection and thermal stability and is non-corrosive to yellow metals as an additive in industrial oil and grease applications.
Octopol MB Methylene-bis-(dibutyldithiocarbamate)
An ash-less dithiocarbamate offering pressure, anti-wear, and antioxidant properties as a lubricant and grease additive.
Octopol Grease & Lubricant Dithiocarbamates
Click on a product name to see the technical data sheet
Octopol AD Antimony Dialkyldithiocarbamate
Used as a corrosion inhibitor, antioxidant, friction reducer and antiscuff additive. Excellent extreme pressure and anti-wear additive in lubricating greases. A low ash additive compatible with greases, industrial and automotive gear oils.
Octopol AZ Zinc Dialkyldithiocarbamate
Used in petroleum products as an oxidation inhibitor, metal deactivator, anti-wear agent and bearing corrosion inhibitor.
Octopol AD-I Antimony Dithiocarbamate
Sulfurized Olefin Blend Used as an extreme pressure and anti- wear additive with good oxidation inhibiting properties. A general purpose non-lead additive compatible with petroleum oil and greases.
Octopol PTB Potassium Triborate in Oil
PTB offers extreme anti-wear, antioxidant protection and thermal stability and is non-corrosive to yellow metals as an additive in industrial oil and grease applications.
Octopol MB Methylene-bis-(dibutyldithiocarbamate)
An ash-less dithiocarbamate offering pressure, anti-wear, and antioxidant properties as a lubricant and grease additive.
Is 36ppm all you need to cancel out all moly and boron and a lot of zinc? Seems insufficient.
Compare the Pennzoil conventional with this oil Mobil is selling and I think it is a no brainer. That 36ppm is a minimum as is the calcium. As Mr Fields always said: you have a moral obligation to take money from suckers.
Originally Posted By: yaris0128
Is 36ppm all you need to cancel out all moly and boron and a lot of zinc? Seems insufficient.
Originally Posted By: yaris0128
Is 36ppm all you need to cancel out all moly and boron and a lot of zinc? Seems insufficient.
Give up! The vOA wont tell you much about the oil these days and the UOA wont tell you anything much about wear. B-S #'s are all ovethe map. Go by Smoothness, racket, power and fuel mileage. This oil creamed Pennzoil conventional SN in our Forester.
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I will continue buying the SM and SL oils until I see some test results with the Ti oils. Anyone know if any unintended consquences with the SN oils? Probably too early to tell.
How much do you need to make a difference??? And I read an article that we are getting less for our money. Re. you now get less potato chips for the same price. I think oil mfg are doing that, though Pennzoil conventional has an improved add pack. Either way as always, heads we win tails you lose..
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
Titanium creates a protective layer that bonds to metal.Here is an article about titanium.
Titanium
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
Titanium creates a protective layer that bonds to metal.Here is an article about titanium.
Titanium
Since titanium is able to replace zinc according to studies and since it seems to coat the metal parts to protect them,why are we getting less? Zinc is cheap but no one talks about getting cheated when it is used.
I think that one reason that engine oil costs as much as it does is that it is processed more than it used to be.We now have dino processed to the point that it is considered 'synthetic'.There are several groups now,II,II+,III and others.
This process takes more oil to get what is needed,especially since the new SN standard has come about.The more refined a product is,the more it will usually cost.
While Pennzoil conventional maye have what some consider a good add pack,are the titanium adds worse? Are they any less able to do what oil is supposed to do?
I doubt that this is the case.While some other additives may have been reduced/eleminated,why does that mean that the add pack is worse? If an oil is good enough to have fewer additives,isnt that better? Synthetic oils are said to be the best and how many of them have fewer additives? They are still considered superior even with less additives.
Since this is the case,why are fewer additives a bad thing in a dino? Shouldnt the oil be better if it can meet and or exceed the SN standard with fewer additives?
I think that if SOPUS were the ones using the titanium that it would be a different story and many would be talking about how SOPUS was doing a really good thing and that the oil would be even better than it used to be.
I think that one reason that engine oil costs as much as it does is that it is processed more than it used to be.We now have dino processed to the point that it is considered 'synthetic'.There are several groups now,II,II+,III and others.
This process takes more oil to get what is needed,especially since the new SN standard has come about.The more refined a product is,the more it will usually cost.
While Pennzoil conventional maye have what some consider a good add pack,are the titanium adds worse? Are they any less able to do what oil is supposed to do?
I doubt that this is the case.While some other additives may have been reduced/eleminated,why does that mean that the add pack is worse? If an oil is good enough to have fewer additives,isnt that better? Synthetic oils are said to be the best and how many of them have fewer additives? They are still considered superior even with less additives.
Since this is the case,why are fewer additives a bad thing in a dino? Shouldnt the oil be better if it can meet and or exceed the SN standard with fewer additives?
I think that if SOPUS were the ones using the titanium that it would be a different story and many would be talking about how SOPUS was doing a really good thing and that the oil would be even better than it used to be.
Mobil Clean 5000 will be drained out this weekend and Mobil Super 5000 will be the next fill in our Crown Vic!
Just when you look at the Redline add make up you see what is included in a $10 oil. When you look at Mobil 5000 has it reminds you of the Wally house oil. . The ammount of Titanium 36ppm seems low. The syn pack are not less so far maybe as we move on into SN but for now I cannot think of any. I really dont think the issue is who makes it but alittle flim flam.
is able to replace zinc according to studies and since it seems to coat the metal parts to protect them,why are we getting less? Zinc is cheap but no one talks about I think that one reason that engine oil costs as much as it does is that it is processed more than it used to be.We now have dino processed to the point that it is considered 'synthetic'.There are several groups now,II,II+,III and others.
This process takes more oil to get what is needed,especially since the new SN standard has come about.The more refined a product is,the more it will usually cost.
While Pennzoil conventional maye have what some consider a good add pack,are the titanium adds worse? Are they any less able to do what oil is supposed to do?
I doubt that this is the case.While some other additives may have been reduced/eleminated,why does that mean that the add pack is worse? If an oil is good enough to have fewer additives,isnt that better? Synthetic oils are said to be the best and how many of them have fewer additives? They are still considered superior even with less additives.
Since this is the case,why are fewer additives a bad thing in a dino? Shouldnt the oil be better if it can meet and or exceed the SN standard with fewer additives?
I think that if SOPUS were the ones using the titanium that it would be a different story and many would be talking about how SOPUS was doing a really good thing and that the oil would be even better than it used to be.
[/quote]
This process takes more oil to get what is needed,especially since the new SN standard has come about.The more refined a product is,the more it will usually cost.
While Pennzoil conventional maye have what some consider a good add pack,are the titanium adds worse? Are they any less able to do what oil is supposed to do?
I doubt that this is the case.While some other additives may have been reduced/eleminated,why does that mean that the add pack is worse? If an oil is good enough to have fewer additives,isnt that better? Synthetic oils are said to be the best and how many of them have fewer additives? They are still considered superior even with less additives.
Since this is the case,why are fewer additives a bad thing in a dino? Shouldnt the oil be better if it can meet and or exceed the SN standard with fewer additives?
I think that if SOPUS were the ones using the titanium that it would be a different story and many would be talking about how SOPUS was doing a really good thing and that the oil would be even better than it used to be.
[/quote]
You cant really compare Redline to Mobil Super or any other conventional oil.Yes,some conventional's are processed to the point that they are considered synthetic but that does not apply to the basic conventional oils we are talking about.
Redline is synthetic,the oils mentioned here are conventional,you cant really compare them like that.
While 36ppm may not seem like much in the way of titanium,the add pack(s) that is/are higher in others may not be needed either.The Mobil still has zinc in it along with the titanium,there should be plenty of protection.
If you take the logic applied here,you can say that Redline adds more titanium than may actually be needed to increase the cost of the oil and they then make more money.
If this is the case,those that use Redline are really getting less for more,especially when Mobil Super and others cost around $3.00-$4.00 a quart.That is less than half what Redline costs and you still get great quality oils that will give great results.
Redline is synthetic,the oils mentioned here are conventional,you cant really compare them like that.
While 36ppm may not seem like much in the way of titanium,the add pack(s) that is/are higher in others may not be needed either.The Mobil still has zinc in it along with the titanium,there should be plenty of protection.
If you take the logic applied here,you can say that Redline adds more titanium than may actually be needed to increase the cost of the oil and they then make more money.
If this is the case,those that use Redline are really getting less for more,especially when Mobil Super and others cost around $3.00-$4.00 a quart.That is less than half what Redline costs and you still get great quality oils that will give great results.
Not comparing Redline to a conventional just showing when a robust add pack like Redlines you never see sodium, minimum levels of zinc etc. Just compare Mobil 5000 to Pennzoil conventional which has moly, boron in its add pack. To me they took a nice add pack from the SM oil version and cheapened it so they could still sell cheap. Less potato chips in the bag same price though. Either way whatever blows you hair back
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
You cant really compare Redline to Mobil Super or any other conventional oil.Yes,some conventional's are processed to the point that they are considered synthetic but that does not apply to the basic conventional oils we are talking about.
Redline is synthetic,the oils mentioned here are conventional,you cant really compare them like that.
While 36ppm may not seem like much in the way of titanium,the add pack(s) that is/are higher in others may not be needed either.The Mobil still has zinc in it along with the titanium,there should be plenty of protection.
If you take the logic applied here,you can say that Redline adds more titanium than may actually be needed to increase the cost of the oil and they then make more money.
If this is the case,those that use Redline are really getting less for more,especially when Mobil Super and others cost around $3.00-$4.00 a quart.That is less than half what Redline costs and you still get great quality oils that will give great results.
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
You cant really compare Redline to Mobil Super or any other conventional oil.Yes,some conventional's are processed to the point that they are considered synthetic but that does not apply to the basic conventional oils we are talking about.
Redline is synthetic,the oils mentioned here are conventional,you cant really compare them like that.
While 36ppm may not seem like much in the way of titanium,the add pack(s) that is/are higher in others may not be needed either.The Mobil still has zinc in it along with the titanium,there should be plenty of protection.
If you take the logic applied here,you can say that Redline adds more titanium than may actually be needed to increase the cost of the oil and they then make more money.
If this is the case,those that use Redline are really getting less for more,especially when Mobil Super and others cost around $3.00-$4.00 a quart.That is less than half what Redline costs and you still get great quality oils that will give great results.
You are in a sense comparing conventional to synthetic.You talk about Redlines add pack and what it may or may not have in it and then you talk how that Pennzoil conventional etc. has the things that Redline does not.That is comparing.
You also say that Mobil and others that use titanium are cheapening their add pack,what proof of this do you have?
Just because Castrol,Mobil,Conoco-Phillips and how many others use titanium does not mean that the product is cheap.Titanium seems to be a very good repacement for zinc and since Mobil and maybe others,use both,that does not really sound cheap,it sounds as if you get two very good barrier lubricants in the same bottle.
Titanium has been shown to actually bond to the metal and forms a hard oxide,iron titanate.Instead of getting a cheap oil,you get a high quality product that should give most that use it outstanding results.
You also say that Mobil and others that use titanium are cheapening their add pack,what proof of this do you have?
Just because Castrol,Mobil,Conoco-Phillips and how many others use titanium does not mean that the product is cheap.Titanium seems to be a very good repacement for zinc and since Mobil and maybe others,use both,that does not really sound cheap,it sounds as if you get two very good barrier lubricants in the same bottle.
Titanium has been shown to actually bond to the metal and forms a hard oxide,iron titanate.Instead of getting a cheap oil,you get a high quality product that should give most that use it outstanding results.
You make very good points we have to I guess wait till we get into used oil analysis and see what is up. The Kendall Full Synthetic along with the other oils they sell shows a 010 of Titanium present, this report shows 36 of the Mobil 5000, What is the difference??? 36ppm and .010 in the Kendall oil?? Thanks if you do,
please advise. do you know what that means??????
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
You are in a sense comparing conventional to synthetic.You talk about Redlines add pack and what it may or may not have in it and then you talk how that Pennzoil conventional etc. has the things that Redline does not.That is comparing.
You also say that Mobil and others that use titanium are cheapening their add pack,what proof of this do you have?
Just because Castrol,Mobil,Conoco-Phillips and how many others use titanium does not mean that the product is cheap.Titanium seems to be a very good repacement for zinc and since Mobil and maybe others,use both,that does not really sound cheap,it sounds as if you get two very good barrier lubricants in the same bottle.
Titanium has been shown to actually bond to the metal and forms a hard oxide,iron titanate.Instead of getting a cheap oil,you get a high quality product that should give most that use it outstanding results.
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
You are in a sense comparing conventional to synthetic.You talk about Redlines add pack and what it may or may not have in it and then you talk how that Pennzoil conventional etc. has the things that Redline does not.That is comparing.
You also say that Mobil and others that use titanium are cheapening their add pack,what proof of this do you have?
Just because Castrol,Mobil,Conoco-Phillips and how many others use titanium does not mean that the product is cheap.Titanium seems to be a very good repacement for zinc and since Mobil and maybe others,use both,that does not really sound cheap,it sounds as if you get two very good barrier lubricants in the same bottle.
Titanium has been shown to actually bond to the metal and forms a hard oxide,iron titanate.Instead of getting a cheap oil,you get a high quality product that should give most that use it outstanding results.
.010 of titanium means that the oil has 100 ppm of this additive in it.The thing here that you have to remember is that this amount in a synthetic could be because of the long OCI that is used by most that use synthetic.It also could be because the oil only has titanium and no zinc,then a higher amount is something that I think you should look for.
Most that use sythetic oils change their oils at 10K or more and may go a year or longer between oil changes.A higher amount of an additive could be because of the extended OCI's that they expect of their users.
You also have to consider whether or not the oil you look at also has zinc in it along with the titanium.If is does,a lower amount of titanium should not be something to be concerned about.
When you consider that a dino has a lower amount of titanium,most that use dino have shorter OCI's and the oil gets changed out more often.The lesser titanium should not have any effect on the oil and should give the normal user plenty of protection,as long as zinc is also present.
Most that use sythetic oils change their oils at 10K or more and may go a year or longer between oil changes.A higher amount of an additive could be because of the extended OCI's that they expect of their users.
You also have to consider whether or not the oil you look at also has zinc in it along with the titanium.If is does,a lower amount of titanium should not be something to be concerned about.
When you consider that a dino has a lower amount of titanium,most that use dino have shorter OCI's and the oil gets changed out more often.The lesser titanium should not have any effect on the oil and should give the normal user plenty of protection,as long as zinc is also present.
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