Mobil 1 -Fe Explained (R.T. Vanderbilt)

[Motorbike]

I wanted to set something straight that might have been taken wrong when I wrote :

There is alot about additives used in these various oils and formulations we will never know here at BITOG until the chemists that work for companies and actually make these various additives and are involved in initial and long term testing start posting in answer to individual ultra specific questions here which at this point seems unlikely

This did not mean to be interpited that our best guy here for these type topics and most knowledgable member in that regard" Molakule " cannot answer these questions and or dig in and find out .

It's just that I believe he knows more than he can post about in terms of proprietory information , legalities and all that . Just did not want anyone to think I said he was not up to the task .... just so much he can post IMO .

I don't think I'm too far offbase there

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,

Motorbike - while your comment regarding the input of individuals such as Molakule is noted it is also fair to say that the real facts are known to a only a "few" within the relevant Corporate structure. And jealously protected too, with many knowing the parts and very few the whole!

These fortunate "few" are unlikely to post the details here!

The rest is simply a series of balanced and professional "viewpoints" based on the obtainable information

And measuring an oil's performance by 1 or 2ppm without taking the whole into account is certainly an inaccurate science!

Could Ted really say that engine X ran for 400k on Amsoil and yet engine Y only got 200k on M1 and this was due to the oil alone! I doubt it!!!
The 3MP test is relevant for this reason and for the ultimate cost/benefit result. It may be that the best oil is the same as the worst!

Thanks Motorbike - the reality check is needed on here!

Regards

 

[TooSlick]

The Series 2000 formulations have used borates since they were introduced in 1995. I have oil analysis data that goes back that far ...

I've never seen this illusionary spike in iron levels that is supposed to occur with borate esters. As I mentioned, any iron/borate plating effect would be with the first time use of the oil; then the iron levels would drop. This is the effect you see with the Redline additive chemistry on copper and lead materials. You would certainly not want to formulate an additive package that was aggressively removing ferrous materials from engine parts.

You notice the high iron levels more with Mobil 1 in large displacement, pushrod engines, since they tend to generate lots of iron from the timing chain,sprockets and valvetrain. However, engines using Mobil 1 generally tend to show more iron than engines using other top tier synthetics like Redline, Amsoil, Royal Purple, Mobils' own Delvac 1 and the Castrol 0w-30.

It is very easy to prove this:

1) Take the UOA's and catagorize them by specific engine types/model years....

2) Calculate the wear rate of iron in ppm/1000 miles...

3) Look at the Fe wear for the Mobil 1, xw-30 grades compared to other oils.

Note: the M1, 5w-40 and 15w-50 do NOT have this issue with high iron, since they use optimum levels of ZDDP and thicker, more protective PAO basestocks.

TS

 

[MolaKule]

What I CAN tell you is that the Boron that M1 and Amsoil uses CANNOT be the Boron from R.T Vanderbilt, since RTV hasn't released their amide Boron ester into production as yet. A number of formulators have been testing the OCD-289 for the last year or so in engine oils and gear lubes and quite frankly, it's a winner. It has the potential to replace ZDDP entirely.

The RTV boron is stabilized with a rust Inhibitor.

In general terms, the latest adds that contain Boron are some dispersants, and another type of AW additive which is known as "phosphorylated borons" which includes boron and phosphor in one package, usually in an esterified or amide boron ester package. With Boron, the boron does not react chemically with the surface by itself, but the phosphor reacts with both the boron and the iron to produce a FeBP surface film. All S-P type packages (even ZDDP and MoDTC) produce a reaction with Fe form a FeSP and FeMo surface film. So the suposed higher Fe wear is not coming from the Borated esters.

BTW, as of last count, there were 300 companies dealing in one or more types of the 5000+ additives. However, in the literature, one sees certain additive combinations that are surfacing in the literature and becoming the mainstream additive types for low-zddp or future no-zddp formulations. Exciting times for the guessers, but very challenging times for the formulators and chemists.

[ March 31, 2004, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[edhackett]

Hmmm... plain borate corrosion inhibitors work on iron by encouraging the formation of ferric oxide. This thin film of oxidation prevents further oxidation. It's the same principle as anodizing aluminum(aluminum oxide)and gun blue.

Is it possible that a certain oil's chemistry allows this reaction to take place to a very small degree, on the bare, clean iron of the cylinder bores? It seems the the higher Fe numbers are seen in engines with plain cast iron blocks, as opposed to engines that may be cast with a more corrosion resistant alloy, or engines that use high quality steel cylinder liners.

Ed

 

[Motorbike]

See thats but one of the problems when one believes Mobil SS might be responsible for high iron be it valve train wear or other .

These ductile iron sleeves used in the aluminum blocks can and will have varying amounts of nickel and other elements . The different designs and alloys used in the aluminum alloy engine blocks will have different thermal expansion rates , same for the sleeves . Then , same for engine blocks . And the cast iron cranks that GM uses vs the nodular iron Ford and others use might be more condusive to showing light corrosion through analyisis. The aluminum alloy blocks and cylinder heads can actually permiate si for a time masking as silicone sealer . The Hyperuetectic pistons near every maker has gone to will show Si as well and possibly more so than the old cast aluminum pistons of yesterday . Some for the life cycle of the engine , yet others depending on how much Si is made into them less time .

Moly in the past showed to be ring wear in engines with Plasma Moly ring sets . Now we have moly as an additive and piston skirt coatings as a anti-friction device .

I think a member did up a little data collection where Mobil actually showed less Fe collectivley compared to other synlube analyisis's here .

Probably now more than ever trending out the owners engine and his/her driving styles is more important than using what the guy next door uses for a motor oil because his wear was 4ppm less than the last analysis of a different oil .

In the end it's still cost vs performance .

I started a post thats difficult to end though .

There's more to include warm-up time different owners uses, the efficiency of the combustion chamber design in different engines " yes it plays a role 'the rod/stroke ratio and rod angularity , where the pin height is located on the piston ,how much cam is built into the piston , the design of the skirt ,pressed fit or floating pin piston , ring width to ring placement to existing ring frett , the fillet radius of the crank , all the way to cannot compare a VW analysis to a domestic engine due to the metallurgy of the rod and main bearing differences and on and on to include if one 4.6 has a manual transmission and the next one showing less copper has an automatic transmission or one tows , the other does not, still yet it could go on and on .

Then enter...additives

The best oil still might be the one the owner picks and uses because there are many good ones and choices of intervals to use them for , hopefully based on a little knowledge learned here at BITOG .

Just a guesser's point of view and opinion because I know near nothing about an internal combustion engine

therefore follow one's own or anothers advise , not mine

.

I just enjoy being here and conversing with all while trying to find fact vs fiction with the modern oil chemistries . If we don't bring up topics , the pond will become stagnate

[ April 01, 2004, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]

 

[Motorbike]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug Hillary:


with many knowing the parts and very few the whole!

---

I believe you hit the nail square on the head with that except the few that knows the whole part ..... have not seen that as of yet

 

[MolaKule]

Just to clarify, I hope everyone realizes that when I used the word "guessers" I was not using the word as a put down or to denigrate anyone, but using it as more of a "tongue-in-check" comment, in a joking manner.

 

[Motorbike]

Oh for me at least I just reused the word guesser cause I liked it

and over in the analysis section it fits pretty well given the information not given sometimes

I was in a hurry , edited and left the site and wish I could replace

I know near nothing about an internal combustion engine

with

I know near nothing about these modern chemistries

in which I mean't to say ...... but we have a time limit for editing and good reason for it .

So , if ever there is a new oil avaiable with a neato new boron in and the analysis look like this at 12,500 miles

lead 0
copper 0
aluminum 0
tin 0
iron 156

might this be this new boron

 

[JohnBrowning]

You know I wounder if the fact that M1 is being used in these vechiles with higher iron is just a fluke? I say this because if we like at the Toyota i-Force 4.7 V8 the samples we have seen had low iron readings. Quite a few of these UOA on this engine have been with various weights of M1 mostly 5W-30 and 10W30. We have only seen one out-lyer for this engine design with highr then normal numbers and it was not running M1.