Explanation for Mobil 1 high iron readings?
- Thread starter MGregoir
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Yes, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, GM in the LSx engines, Ford in the Ford GT and Cobra's.....etc.
Hi,
there are many factors at play here and IMHO I think the comments in the first Post about the functions of certain "chemicals" are "on the right tram"
As for evaluating lubricants by UOA wear metals in ppm this must be done to a set and well established set of protocols and over a considerable time/distance to be even "meaningful"
I have never seen the "high" ppm levels of Iron and/or other metals in some UOAs from some engines concerning M1 translate into "excessive" wear! When the evaluation is "clinically" done and there are no engine "issues" of course
As an example of how UOAs here on BITOG are really simply only "interesting" is that engine/component wear rates are measured by engine and component manufacturers to such accuracy as nanometers (one millionth of a millimetre) per hour over 1000 hours and etc via radionucleide tests. There are other similar test protocols too!
As well in service engine tests of lubricants can cover thousands of engines in all sorts of operations and they can last for millions of kms and many years. This was my realm for many years
It is interesting to note that many manufacturers of engines with very complex valve trains such as switchable bucket tappets (Porsche) and switchable roller tappets and the likes use M1 (such as M1 0w-40) as a factory and mandated service fill. There is no evidence of excessive wear in these engines. Porsche have used M1 0W-40 as their factory fill since around 2000 and Daimler AG for about the same length of time
Average OCIs for Dealers serviced Mercedes engines here in OZ is about 15-18kkms and sometime out to two years (Porsche & Mercedes)
In NA during the early 2000s Porsche embarked on a "blanket" UOA programme of every engine that had any sort of failure including oil leaks from the RMS (996 engines), intermediate shaft failures and the like. M1 0W-40 was the factory fill then - it still is hundreds of UOAs and thousands of engines and millions of miles later!
When GM here in OZ had excessive oil consumption "issues" in their US sourced V8 engines (M1 10W-30 was the factory and service fill) they would not simply change to M1 5W-50 or M1 15W-50 that reduced the consumption - they issued recalls and fixed the engine's techical shortcomings. Excessive engine wear issues were never mentioned - they never existed! I am sure that many UOAs were taken during this process
Perhaps the interesting UOAs here on BITOG do have legs at times and these run much further ahead of reality
there are many factors at play here and IMHO I think the comments in the first Post about the functions of certain "chemicals" are "on the right tram"
As for evaluating lubricants by UOA wear metals in ppm this must be done to a set and well established set of protocols and over a considerable time/distance to be even "meaningful"
I have never seen the "high" ppm levels of Iron and/or other metals in some UOAs from some engines concerning M1 translate into "excessive" wear! When the evaluation is "clinically" done and there are no engine "issues" of course
As an example of how UOAs here on BITOG are really simply only "interesting" is that engine/component wear rates are measured by engine and component manufacturers to such accuracy as nanometers (one millionth of a millimetre) per hour over 1000 hours and etc via radionucleide tests. There are other similar test protocols too!
As well in service engine tests of lubricants can cover thousands of engines in all sorts of operations and they can last for millions of kms and many years. This was my realm for many years
It is interesting to note that many manufacturers of engines with very complex valve trains such as switchable bucket tappets (Porsche) and switchable roller tappets and the likes use M1 (such as M1 0w-40) as a factory and mandated service fill. There is no evidence of excessive wear in these engines. Porsche have used M1 0W-40 as their factory fill since around 2000 and Daimler AG for about the same length of time
Average OCIs for Dealers serviced Mercedes engines here in OZ is about 15-18kkms and sometime out to two years (Porsche & Mercedes)
In NA during the early 2000s Porsche embarked on a "blanket" UOA programme of every engine that had any sort of failure including oil leaks from the RMS (996 engines), intermediate shaft failures and the like. M1 0W-40 was the factory fill then - it still is hundreds of UOAs and thousands of engines and millions of miles later!
When GM here in OZ had excessive oil consumption "issues" in their US sourced V8 engines (M1 10W-30 was the factory and service fill) they would not simply change to M1 5W-50 or M1 15W-50 that reduced the consumption - they issued recalls and fixed the engine's techical shortcomings. Excessive engine wear issues were never mentioned - they never existed! I am sure that many UOAs were taken during this process
Perhaps the interesting UOAs here on BITOG do have legs at times and these run much further ahead of reality
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Quote:
Perhaps the interesting UOAs here on BITOG do have legs at times and these run much further ahead of reality
No, Doug ..I don't think too many UOA with any oil see high readings. What's being discussed here is noise over noise in some UOA involving M1. While it may be an increase of 30-40% of Fe ..it's from 8 - 12 ppm over some duration. Noise over noise.
Perhaps the interesting UOAs here on BITOG do have legs at times and these run much further ahead of reality
No, Doug ..I don't think too many UOA with any oil see high readings. What's being discussed here is noise over noise in some UOA involving M1. While it may be an increase of 30-40% of Fe ..it's from 8 - 12 ppm over some duration. Noise over noise.
Originally Posted By: buster
Doubtful, but possible sure. I think all oils do well in Toyotas, not just Mobil 1.
Not if they were of the slugger varieties...
Doubtful, but possible sure. I think all oils do well in Toyotas, not just Mobil 1.
Not if they were of the slugger varieties...
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Maybe the high iron wear is not the most important thing? The M1 does a very good job of keeping engines clean. Maybe that's more important than a few more ppm of iron? Thoughts?
Probably. I'd still prefer lower #'s regardless.
Maybe the high iron wear is not the most important thing? The M1 does a very good job of keeping engines clean. Maybe that's more important than a few more ppm of iron? Thoughts?
Probably. I'd still prefer lower #'s regardless.
Although the factory endorsement is definitely important IMO, there are things the factory has to consider that might not be of concern to any given user. One of the most important is consistency and availability. For example Porsche sells cars all over the world, and no doubt the fact that M1 is available almost anywhere in the world, and is of consistent high quality whether you buy it in Bangladesh or Brussels, is probably an important consideration for them. BITOGers have only to consider the quality of oils available in their area.
Cleanliness is likely another. I am not an oil cleanliness fanatic; but a factory attempting to offer extended drain intervals in cars that might see very mixed use and possibly with poor quality gasoline, mediocre maintenance, and so on; must put a very high importance of the ability of the oil to keep the engine as clean as possible under such conditions. BITOGers, who change the oil at good intervals and are cognizant of related maintenance issues, can put a higher relative priority on other factors, such as pure anti-wear performance.
Then there is price. I don't believe that Mobil gives "sweetheart" deals to car companies in order to get their recommendation, but they probably price the product favorably in comparison to other suppliers (not less, necessarily, but favorably) such that considering the product's other advantages, their oil becomes the best overall "deal" for the manufacturer.
Finally, there is the vendor relationship between the auto manufacturer and oil supplier. Exxon-Mobil, as an industry giant, probably has very sophisticated control processes and distribution systems that enable it to be a more trustworthy and efficient supplier than most if not all other potential oil suppliers, and that is always something an auto manufacturer takes into account.
So I don't think the factories are choosing Mobil 1 oil because it is the best oil. They know their cars will run far longer on any high quality oil than even the 99.9th-percentile buyer will require. They need an oil of sufficient overall quality to meet their needs, and it's quite possible that for any given user, a different oil could be a better choice.
Cleanliness is likely another. I am not an oil cleanliness fanatic; but a factory attempting to offer extended drain intervals in cars that might see very mixed use and possibly with poor quality gasoline, mediocre maintenance, and so on; must put a very high importance of the ability of the oil to keep the engine as clean as possible under such conditions. BITOGers, who change the oil at good intervals and are cognizant of related maintenance issues, can put a higher relative priority on other factors, such as pure anti-wear performance.
Then there is price. I don't believe that Mobil gives "sweetheart" deals to car companies in order to get their recommendation, but they probably price the product favorably in comparison to other suppliers (not less, necessarily, but favorably) such that considering the product's other advantages, their oil becomes the best overall "deal" for the manufacturer.
Finally, there is the vendor relationship between the auto manufacturer and oil supplier. Exxon-Mobil, as an industry giant, probably has very sophisticated control processes and distribution systems that enable it to be a more trustworthy and efficient supplier than most if not all other potential oil suppliers, and that is always something an auto manufacturer takes into account.
So I don't think the factories are choosing Mobil 1 oil because it is the best oil. They know their cars will run far longer on any high quality oil than even the 99.9th-percentile buyer will require. They need an oil of sufficient overall quality to meet their needs, and it's quite possible that for any given user, a different oil could be a better choice.
"So I don't think the factories are choosing Mobil 1 oil because it is the best oil. They know their cars will run far longer on any high quality oil than even the 99.9th-percentile buyer will require. They need an oil of sufficient overall quality to meet their needs, and it's quite possible that for any given user, a different oil could be a better choice."
So Porsche owners should ignore factory recommendations and pick an oil based upon low Fe in a $20 UOA, say something like a GF-4 5w30, and certainly not one of those goofy Euro specs ?
So Porsche owners should ignore factory recommendations and pick an oil based upon low Fe in a $20 UOA, say something like a GF-4 5w30, and certainly not one of those goofy Euro specs ?
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I don't think his offering suggested a 180° polarized turnaround. Life just isn't broken down to "if yer ain't wid us, yer agin us" X axis flatland view.
PQ index analysis of Fe would be interesting. "Wear metals" can show up in UOA due to leaching effects due to additive interaction with metal surfaces. Engine teardowns/inspections and sophisticated wear measurement techniques are indeed very valuable sources of info - and provide a bit more insight that a $20 UOA.
Originally Posted By: OilGuy
PQ index analysis of Fe would be interesting. "Wear metals" can show up in UOA due to leaching effects due to additive interaction with metal surfaces. Engine teardowns/inspections and sophisticated wear measurement techniques are indeed very valuable sources of info - and provide a bit more insight that a $20 UOA.
I have always given M1 the benefit of the doubt and kind of assumed that more extensive testing has been done to ensure wear control is good. If Mobil 1 had wear control issues, which I don't know of any oil that does these days, it wouldn't be in so many "high end" cars. The flip side is that M1 is just not what it once was.
PQ index analysis of Fe would be interesting. "Wear metals" can show up in UOA due to leaching effects due to additive interaction with metal surfaces. Engine teardowns/inspections and sophisticated wear measurement techniques are indeed very valuable sources of info - and provide a bit more insight that a $20 UOA.
I have always given M1 the benefit of the doubt and kind of assumed that more extensive testing has been done to ensure wear control is good. If Mobil 1 had wear control issues, which I don't know of any oil that does these days, it wouldn't be in so many "high end" cars. The flip side is that M1 is just not what it once was.
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