Mobil SuperSyn and Hi Iron

[Motorbike]

Mobil makes their own additives but the below link pretty much tells that with newer Borated FM's the Borates plate and form a hard " surface " layer of an " Iron Borate " directly to the metal .

It's now my opinion that "most" of the Fe in Mobil SS analysis's is not wear metal from the cylinder walls or other cast iron components such as the camshaft .

With the large level of Boron in the SS motor oil and it's proprietary additive pack made by Mobil it now stands to reason why only the SS shows higher Fe than other motor oil analysis's . I don't really think it's too thin or a less robust motor oil at all . In fact it really does have large doses of additives for the cost .

Let's chew on this

http://www.rtvanderbilt.com/news_19.htm

 

[buster]

This is an excellent point. If Redline's wear metals aren't always wear, then I imagine the same could be said with SS. Mobil 1's additive package IMO is more advanced then Amsoil's and probably only second to Redline's. For the money, it's tough to beat Mobil 1. I'd like to here what Molekule has to say about this or another knowledgable member.

 

[Al]

Not sure I buy it. We don't (at lest I don't) know if this is the same borate that Exxon uses. Mobil 1 has had high iron for some time now. And if the Boron combined with the iron we would see a large depletion (possibly) of Boron. Also if it combines with the iron on the surface- why would the iron go up

.

Unfortunately this is beyond my understanding level

.

 

[Motorbike]

Al,

Elemental new oil analysis shows the Virgin SS to have 220 parts per million of Boron here .

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000153

Your own used oil analysis of the Supersyn showed an uptake or plating of Boron at around 82 ppm in your interval, leaving your oil with 138ppm of Boron at the end of the interval .

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001134

Let's chew on this some more .

[ January 02, 2004, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]

 

[buster]

I'm not totally convinced Mobil 1's Fe is any higher then other oils. Take a look at Amsoil's Series 2000. I went back and found that it shows fairly high Fe on a consistant basis. That uses Boron now too.

Hopefully Molekule can chime in.

 

[Motorbike]

Buster ,

Since the chemistry can vary for making these Borate Esters it is entirely possible the Amsoil 0/30 formulation chemistry demands the same type " or simalar " boron used in the Mobil SS . This too would stand to reason since Amsoil out sources their additives along with the base oil they use .

 

[TooSlick]

Delvac 1, 5w-40 also contains borate ester, yet it shows much lower rates of iron wear than Mobil 1.
The Amsoil 0w-30/5w-30/10w-30 contain borate esters and show significantly lower iron wear than Mobil 1 - up to 50% lower in many cases. The Synergyn 0w-20 I just finished using had 150 ppm of boron - yet my oil analysis after 6500 miles showed only 7 ppm of iron from the valvetrain and cylinder walls. I could cite several more examples, but I think folks get the idea.

Just for the record,Mobil gets their additives from a company called "Infinium", which they happen to jointly own with Royal Dutch Shell. Amsoil relies on Lubrizol and/or Ethyl for their baseline additive chemistries. These add packs are generally "tweaked" once they are brought in house....

Tooslick

 

[buster]

quote:

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Just for the record,Mobil gets their additives from a company called "Infinium", which they happen to jointly own with Royal Dutch Shell. Amsoil relies on Lubrizol and/or Ethyl for their baseline additive chemistries. These add packs are generally "tweaked" once they are brought in house....

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TS, thanks for the info.

I had no idea Mobil bought from them. Lubrizol is a top notch company.

I don't think it's fair to say Amsoil has 50% less wear then Mobil 1 in Fe. In some cases yes, in some cases no.

 

[Motorbike]

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:

quote:

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I don't think it's fair to say Amsoil has 50% less wear then Mobil 1 in Fe. In some cases yes, in some cases no.

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It's not fairplay ? Seems the norm for such

But really , Mobil 30wts usually show 30% less Fe than the Amsoil 0/30 . The analysis's here bear this out .

So just what part of an Iron element picked up in analysis is not understood ? Especially if it's plated to the cylinders and camshaft - no white metals .

I think the Amsoil 0/30's Boron is either a different type than the 5-10/30 Amsoil or the Ester helps releive the flash corrosion .

 

[Tones]

quote:

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Originally posted by Motorbike:
So just what part of an Iron element picked up in analysis is not understood ? Especially if it's plated to the cylinders and camshaft - no white metals .

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Perhaps I don't understand what you are saying here, but if there is iron in the oil sample, it means it came from the engine. If it came from the engine, wear has taken place. So, if the Borates plated to the surfaces of the iron components, they did not prevent the wear. I think this is what Al was saying as well.

 

[Last_Z]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
Delvac 1, 5w-40 also contains borate ester, yet it shows much lower rates of iron wear than Mobil 1.
The Amsoil 0w-30/5w-30/10w-30 contain borate esters and show significantly lower iron wear than Mobil 1 - up to 50% lower in many cases. The Synergyn 0w-20 I just finished using had 150 ppm of boron - yet my oil analysis after 6500 miles showed only 7 ppm of iron from the valvetrain and cylinder walls. I could cite several more examples, but I think folks get the idea.

Just for the record,Mobil gets their additives from a company called "Infinium", which they happen to jointly own with Royal Dutch Shell. Amsoil relies on Lubrizol and/or Ethyl for their baseline additive chemistries. These add packs are generally "tweaked" once they are brought in house....

Tooslick

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TS,
You brought a similar disccusion about RedLine a few weeks ago. You stated that the reason RL show such high copper wear is because it has some copper additive that does not show on VOAs but will show on UOAs after the engine has broke down the components. Why couldn't the same process happen with M1 but with iron instead of copper??

Rick

 

[buster]

quote:

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Mobil 30wts usually show 30% less Fe than the Amsoil 0/30

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TS, not so sure Delvac 1 shows lower Fe. Some of these high ester based oils (RL, D1) are showing higher wear metals throughout, but they are not always wear.

I agree with this. I went back and looked at many if not all of the UOA's and Amsoil's S2k shows higher Fe wear then Mobil's 30wt oils a lot of the time, yet no one says anything. I wish people would go back and look at the UOA's. Seriously, go back and go through 50 pages or so and you'll see reports with all different oils showing high and low wear numbers. It all depends. There was one report with Amsoil ATM 10w-30 in a LS1 and it showed off the wall Fe and Pb, yet it was brushed a side.

If this were M1, it would have been put to death.

Z, you asked a good question and it relates to what Motorbike stated. I don't have the answer but maybe MK can fill in.

[ January 03, 2004, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[buster]

Motorbike, that could be true, problem is, no one wants to criticize any other brand but Mobil 1. If you go back (and I've done this many times) through the UOA's you will find good, great, excellent and lousy reports with all the major brands. Some people just have a personal axe to grind with certain brands. There have been many reports where Amsoil shows high Fe on many occasions with their best oil, S2k. I do see what many are seeing, but I'm not sure if it's engine specific or just the oil. It's easy to blame the oil, and Mobil 1 isn't the best oil for all engines. It has to be looked at more IMO.

[ January 02, 2004, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Last_Z]

buster,

I don't think we are the best of friends and we take shots at each other every now and then........as hard as it "might" be, I have to agree with you.
There does seem to be some bias sometimes on oils as well as additives. Some oils show very high wear and it is justified as cleaning, while other show slighty less and take a beating.

Another example is the OTC flushes such as Rislone and others. We have beaten these name brands to death while people continue to report that they work. I have used ARX in my Z28 and I personally believe it works and was confirmed via UOA. I will definitely use it in the future. I would like however, to find out through UOA if Rislone, MMO and the like work or are just crap, instead of badmouthing them relentlessly.

I hope I didn't offend anyone!

Rick

 

[buster]

Z, your not offending anyone.

I agree with you and it comes down to I think we all need to step back and look into things a bit more before making these generalizations. Could M1 be showing higher Fe? Yes. But maybe it's not. Like I said, go back every now and then and I see a mixed bag of UOA's with all brands.

It could also be that Amsoil is just using higher quality additives in there oils from Lubrizol and Ethyl while Mobil's are less of quality, due to cost. Who knows.

[ January 03, 2004, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Jay]

I don't agree that M1 UOAs show higher iron overall. In my Acura RSX I typically get about 1ppm/1000 miles iron with M1 5w-30 and M1 0w-20.

 

[Schmoe]

Been reading everyones thoughts on this matter, but one thing clearly stood out to me when I started seeing a coorelation with higher iron and M1 on the uoa a few months back. I actually brought this up once or twice, and now it seems to be catching on, but if the virgin samples are not showing Fe, but uoa's come back with Fe, it can only come from the engine, right???? Where else is it coming from? I can surely understand the manufacturing processes but if the voa are nil or almost nil, where is the Fe coming from? Got to be the engine.

 

[Motorbike]

quote:

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Originally posted by Schmoe:

Where else is it coming from? I can surely understand the manufacturing processes but if the voa are nil or almost nil, where is the Fe coming from? Got to be the engine.

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I am getting the impression that the entire link I provided has not yet been read yet

Straight from the website :

This action brings the oil into more intimate contact with the surface which thus affords better wear properties and acts as a lubricity agent. The borate in addition can form an iron borate with the metal surface and as a result applies a hard surface layer directly to the metal. This affords an additional level of protection against wear.

When , not if the boron plates this particular chemistry turns into a Iron Borate the oil is quite possibly putting it into solution with the piston rings helping by doing the scraping , the lifters swiping the cam . Now , does Mobil use simalar Borate Chemistry ? That's the 64k question .

Now this is not a very technical way of describing gut take a piece of rebar , let it flash rust then wipe or flush the flash rust off with virgin motor oil and send it to the lab . It's going to show Fe . Yep , yep it will

[ January 03, 2004, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]

 

[Last_Z]

Where are the chemists at?? The holidays are over people! Let's get back to work!!

 

[JohnBrowning]

So motorbike you are saying that it could be that M1 is just doing a better job of putting the wear iron into suspension? If this is the case it is also doing a better job of getting to the clean metal layer and sticking to it?

If this is the case you would think that each OCI the trend would trend down in reguards to iron.

If I am close let me know. I do not want to miss understand!