Regarding 'being back'... Yes, and create a lightstorm with my first post!! Yes, great to be back!
George
George
Mobil 1, esters, and cleaning
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This is totally bogus. I've been looking at Mobil MSDS's for over two years and they have NEVER given a breakdown of the base oil blend. The only chemical breakdown they give is of the additives. For the base oil, the Mobil 1 MSDS has always simply said "synthetic hydrocarbons" as it does now. (Go to the Mobil 1 web site and take a look.) Take a look at the Delvac 1 MSDS. It doesn't say anything about esters either (and it never has), but does anyone SERIOUSLY doubt that Delvac 1 has esters in it?
i think it cleans pretty well... the inside of my fill cap now looks spotless except a few varnish spots (slowly going away) and some parts of the metal look brand new (car is a 92)
"what negative aspects do esters have?"
They are very expensive to produce and are hydroscopic (absorb moisture).
--- Bror Jace
They are very expensive to produce and are hydroscopic (absorb moisture).
--- Bror Jace
Patman
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If George says it's true that's proof enough for me. He's the next best thing to having ExxonMobil documentation.quote:
Originally posted by G-Man II:
I don't believe this and I won't belive this until I see documented proof from ExxonMobil.
George - Please check you source and document your statement that M1 is now all POE. The chemical properties of pure PAO would not allow the polar components in the additive package to remain in solution. Even the original M1 was never really pure PAO. In contained a slug of conventional oil to keep the addpack in solution. I know this because I chemically analyzed a sample back in 1978. Polycyclic and aromatic compounds were present.
Patman, to say that Mobil 1 now has NO esters is simply too outrageous to be credible. It flies in the face of everything we've come to know about modern synthetic PCMO formulations. It also goes against many posts by MolaKule, who has stated many times that one of the primary elements in the SuperSyn formulation is new esters developed by ExxonMobil chemists.
Interesting. That goes against the info Molakule posted that he got from SAE technical papers, published by Mobil.
Disadvantage to esters?: Mobil does not produce and/or expense
Seriously PAO doesn't appear to hold as many advantages. Mobil themselves even used to call it SHC, Synthesized HydroCarbon!
Esters have the polarity, Friction modification, solvency, thermal stability, molecular strength, etc over PAOs.
(mainly got this info from various posts by Molakule, so hopefully he can chime in
)
Disadvantage to esters?: Mobil does not produce and/or expense
Seriously PAO doesn't appear to hold as many advantages. Mobil themselves even used to call it SHC, Synthesized HydroCarbon!
Esters have the polarity, Friction modification, solvency, thermal stability, molecular strength, etc over PAOs.
(mainly got this info from various posts by Molakule, so hopefully he can chime in
Patman
Staff member
I understand what you're saying, but I just can't see George saying something like this unless he was sure it was true. Don't forget, he's got some very impressive credentials, and he's definitely got some insider info from Mobil too.
Well, I'd like to see his credentials. This is not the first time he's posted something that is, IMO, questionable. Remember this little tidbit:
Once I read that post by him, I began to take just about anything he'd post with a grain of salt.
Oh, and let's not forget his ringing endorsement of the Mobil tech line staff. I've never gotten a straight answer from anyone on the other end of that line, and they always sound like they don't know motor oil from olive oil. Remember, two posters called that line on the same day asking about VI improvers in Mobil 1. I was told that no grade of Mobil 1 has VI improvers, the other poster was told that every grade has them.
[ March 18, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: G-Man II ]
As to the cleaning effect of Mobil 1, Since switching from M1 0W-40 to Delvac 1 (SH, as it's the stuff I got on special), the varnish stain on my dipstick has gone after 3000 km.
Either the varnish was just about dissolved after 12,000km of Redline, followed by 12,000 km of M1 0W-40, or the Delvac is much better.
Either the varnish was just about dissolved after 12,000km of Redline, followed by 12,000 km of M1 0W-40, or the Delvac is much better.
I don't have any problem believing George, FWIW.
It would explain the higher pour points of the supersyn formulations for one thing, vs the trisynthetic formula. I recall the 15w-50 trisynthetic had about 15% polyolester, so Georges figure of > 10% sounds about right.
TooSlick
It would explain the higher pour points of the supersyn formulations for one thing, vs the trisynthetic formula. I recall the 15w-50 trisynthetic had about 15% polyolester, so Georges figure of > 10% sounds about right.
TooSlick
The addition of ExxonMobil's SuperSyn high viscosity PAO to the base oil blend would account for it as well. That doesn't mean there are no esters in it. The pour point of the SL/CI-4 Delvac 1 is quite a bit higher than the SJ/CH-4 formulation. Should we therefore conclude that Delvac 1 no longer has esters in it?
G-ManII,
I wouldn't be surprised if Delvac 1 is also a 100% PAO based oil. The extra cleaning from Delvac 1 is probably a result of a higher level of alkaline detergent additives. Gas engine formulations tend to have a mixture of detergents and dispersants (to control low temp sludge deposits).
It is my understanding that Amsoil has also moved away from the blended basestocks - several years ago, in fact. So I would not be surprised if they are also making some formulations that don't contain ester basestocks.
What is important here is achieving the best mixture of physical/chemical properties in the fully formulated lubricant. How you achieve this is open to a wide range of possibilities.
George Morrison has been a tribologist for over twenty years and works with a number of commercial Mobil accounts. I can't think of anyone more qualified to discuss the chemistry of their lubricants ....
TS
I wouldn't be surprised if Delvac 1 is also a 100% PAO based oil. The extra cleaning from Delvac 1 is probably a result of a higher level of alkaline detergent additives. Gas engine formulations tend to have a mixture of detergents and dispersants (to control low temp sludge deposits).
It is my understanding that Amsoil has also moved away from the blended basestocks - several years ago, in fact. So I would not be surprised if they are also making some formulations that don't contain ester basestocks.
What is important here is achieving the best mixture of physical/chemical properties in the fully formulated lubricant. How you achieve this is open to a wide range of possibilities.
George Morrison has been a tribologist for over twenty years and works with a number of commercial Mobil accounts. I can't think of anyone more qualified to discuss the chemistry of their lubricants ....
TS
Regarding the question "define esters". By this I mean the esters we all know and love. The base stock of Jet oils, some compressor oils, etc. A PAO is not an ester and vice versa. What I am saying is that some pretty neat chemistries have evolved enabling 110% of the ester advantages in a PAO/Ester blend in a 99.8% PAO base oil chemistry engin oil. And no, ExxonMobil is not touring it; there are only those of us on this site that are aware of synthetic oil makeup! But, it did happen with the last formulation. The Ester wand is gone. Along with the negative aspects of the ester. (few, I realize) However, yes, the pour point has suffered somewhat as a result of the absence of that good 170 VI base oil ..
And again, that is why the Mobil 1 had a whole new monicre; it was indeed a very different formulation from its years of evolvement.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
And again, that is why the Mobil 1 had a whole new monicre; it was indeed a very different formulation from its years of evolvement.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Can someone explain how an "esterless" oil relates to quality of the oil? Does this make Mobil 1 a better product then oil with esters or is it just more cost efficient for ExxonMobil to make it this way. As TS mentioned above, this seems like this is just a new approach yielding the same result with less chemistry. (Did I answer my own question?) With ExxonMobil being as large as they are and having probably the best of the best of chemists, I don't doubt they pulled it off. Take a look at this companies financial statements....
[ March 19, 2003, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
Where is 'kule to chime in here? I thought that all PAO's had a certain amount of esters in order to offset the seal-shrinkage properties of the PAO? Does "supersyn" allow for seal-swelling?
Even when I asked about Group III synths, 'kule said that even they have a certain amount of esters. What is so bad about esters? I know the cost is higher...hence, Redline oil's prices...but, I thought they were a higher quality lube than PAO? Is Mobil simply increasing their bottom line?
Even when I asked about Group III synths, 'kule said that even they have a certain amount of esters. What is so bad about esters? I know the cost is higher...hence, Redline oil's prices...but, I thought they were a higher quality lube than PAO? Is Mobil simply increasing their bottom line?
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