My father just took delivery of a 2012 E350 sedan with the 6-cylinder DI engine. The dealer recommends Mobil 1 5W-40 Formula M, which they sell for a very reasonable price of $6/qt. I was considering using Mobil 1 0W-40, which is more readily available. The 0W-40 has a higher TBN; 11.8 vs. 8 for Formula M. Any thoughts or recommendations on using one vs the other?
Mobil 1 5w40 Formula M vs 0W-40
- Thread starter SIXSPEED
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I am assuming that the formula M was created specifically to address the oil related issues with DI engines like deposits and fuel dilution, you could use 0w40, but if the dealers oil is cheaper and of the same quality I would use that, then they have NOTHING to say when something goes wrong internally and you bring it in.
$6 a quart is really quite cheap for quality oil, and that is at the dealer
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Base TBN numbers are not always a good way to pick an oil, you need to actually know which one has and holds a better TBN, you would have to scour through the used oil analysis section and see which one hold up better and for longer, 0w40 is posted all over in there, I have yet to see a 5w40 M used oil analysis or VOA.
$6 a quart is really quite cheap for quality oil, and that is at the dealer
Base TBN numbers are not always a good way to pick an oil, you need to actually know which one has and holds a better TBN, you would have to scour through the used oil analysis section and see which one hold up better and for longer, 0w40 is posted all over in there, I have yet to see a 5w40 M used oil analysis or VOA.
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Originally Posted By: Brenden
I have yet to see a 5w40 M UOA or VOA.
This is presumably Formula M UOA (non-ESP version):
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/mobil-1-6-000-miles-2008-mercedes-c300.140073/
I have yet to see a 5w40 M UOA or VOA.
This is presumably Formula M UOA (non-ESP version):
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/mobil-1-6-000-miles-2008-mercedes-c300.140073/
If the engine is a diesel you must use the Formula M.
If it is gasoline the 0W40 will be a far better oil, however; and it meets the specs for gasoline oils for 2012 MB (229.5).
Charlie
If it is gasoline the 0W40 will be a far better oil, however; and it meets the specs for gasoline oils for 2012 MB (229.5).
Charlie
It's a low saps oil if this is the same Formula M I've seen in pepboys. Unless MB has moved their gassers to some new catalytic converter or changed their mind with regards to low-saps and gassers in the US the Formula M has been reserved for their diesels.
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Wow, Formula M is not as stout as I would have hoped, you can never go wrong with Mobil 1 0w40.
When I stated "you must use Formula M for a diesel" I meant the ESP version.
I didn't know the non ESP Formula M was available in the US. But I still would prefer the 0W40.
Charlie
I didn't know the non ESP Formula M was available in the US. But I still would prefer the 0W40.
Charlie
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
It's a low saps oil if this is the same Formula M I've seen in pepboys.
It's not the same. PepBoys sells Formula M ESP. Formula M ESP is in fact low-saps with a starting TBN of about 5.5.
But there is also regular Formula M with somewhat higher starting TBN, presumably a mid-saps oil. It's a dealer-only product.
As a side note, in Europe XOM has also launched Mobil 1 ESP 0w40 version which meets Dexos2 spec, among others.
It's a low saps oil if this is the same Formula M I've seen in pepboys.
It's not the same. PepBoys sells Formula M ESP. Formula M ESP is in fact low-saps with a starting TBN of about 5.5.
But there is also regular Formula M with somewhat higher starting TBN, presumably a mid-saps oil. It's a dealer-only product.
As a side note, in Europe XOM has also launched Mobil 1 ESP 0w40 version which meets Dexos2 spec, among others.
Here is M1 Formula M 5w-40:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_Formula_M_5W-40.aspx
Here is M1 Formula M 5w-40 ESP:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_ESP_Formula_M_5W-40.aspx
Too bad we don't know what the NOACK is for the two. For a DI engine application, I'd prefer an oil with a low NOACK. To meet the MB 229.5 spec an oil has to have NOACK no higher than 10%, so we at least know it's no higher than that.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_Formula_M_5W-40.aspx
Here is M1 Formula M 5w-40 ESP:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_ESP_Formula_M_5W-40.aspx
Too bad we don't know what the NOACK is for the two. For a DI engine application, I'd prefer an oil with a low NOACK. To meet the MB 229.5 spec an oil has to have NOACK no higher than 10%, so we at least know it's no higher than that.
Originally Posted By: tig1
You said "the dealer reccomended 5-40" but what does the manuel say?
The MB owner's manual requires 229.5 approved oils and recommends choosing an oil viscosity based on prevailing outside temperature ... anything from a 0W30 to a 10W60 is listed so it's a rather wide range.
You said "the dealer reccomended 5-40" but what does the manuel say?
The MB owner's manual requires 229.5 approved oils and recommends choosing an oil viscosity based on prevailing outside temperature ... anything from a 0W30 to a 10W60 is listed so it's a rather wide range.
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
If the engine is a diesel you must use the Formula M.
If it is gasoline the 0W40 will be a far better oil, however; and it meets the specs for gasoline oils for 2012 MB (229.5).
Charlie
The E350 has the 3.5L gasoline engine.
If the engine is a diesel you must use the Formula M.
If it is gasoline the 0W40 will be a far better oil, however; and it meets the specs for gasoline oils for 2012 MB (229.5).
Charlie
The E350 has the 3.5L gasoline engine.
Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
If the engine is a diesel you must use the Formula M.
If it is gasoline the 0W40 will be a far better oil, however; and it meets the specs for gasoline oils for 2012 MB (229.5).
Charlie
The E350 has the 3.5L gasoline engine.
Since its a gas engine.....Mobil 1 0w40 would be my choice...and its considered one of the best, if not the best, Mobil oils....by many here on BITOG.
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
If the engine is a diesel you must use the Formula M.
If it is gasoline the 0W40 will be a far better oil, however; and it meets the specs for gasoline oils for 2012 MB (229.5).
Charlie
The E350 has the 3.5L gasoline engine.
Since its a gas engine.....Mobil 1 0w40 would be my choice...and its considered one of the best, if not the best, Mobil oils....by many here on BITOG.
Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
Originally Posted By: tig1
You said "the dealer reccomended 5-40" but what does the manuel say?
The MB owner's manual requires 229.5 approved oils and recommends choosing an oil viscosity based on prevailing outside temperature ... anything from a 0W30 to a 10W60 is listed so it's a rather wide range.
What does MB currently recommend as far as OCI? Is it 10K miles?
What we've seen in many cases is that due to the fact that US does not have ultra-low sulfur gasoline, some of these low-saps and mid-saps oils don't fare too well over extended drain intervals, unlike in Europe where gasoline quality is better. It might be interesting to see a used oil analysis in your car after 10K miles to help determine if this Formula M is up to the task. I would think it'd be OK. You have a a fairly large oil sump.
Originally Posted By: tig1
You said "the dealer reccomended 5-40" but what does the manuel say?
The MB owner's manual requires 229.5 approved oils and recommends choosing an oil viscosity based on prevailing outside temperature ... anything from a 0W30 to a 10W60 is listed so it's a rather wide range.
What does MB currently recommend as far as OCI? Is it 10K miles?
What we've seen in many cases is that due to the fact that US does not have ultra-low sulfur gasoline, some of these low-saps and mid-saps oils don't fare too well over extended drain intervals, unlike in Europe where gasoline quality is better. It might be interesting to see a used oil analysis in your car after 10K miles to help determine if this Formula M is up to the task. I would think it'd be OK. You have a a fairly large oil sump.
E350 is a gas engine and Mobil 1 0W40 is their best blend.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
What does MB currently recommend as far as OCI? Is it 10K miles?
I don't have the 2012 Maintenance manual with me, but the 2011 manual states 10,000 miles or 1 year. I don't expect this interval to change for 2012. Oil capacity is 6.9 quarts. I'll do a used oil analysis on the factory fill, but it will be a while.
What does MB currently recommend as far as OCI? Is it 10K miles?
I don't have the 2012 Maintenance manual with me, but the 2011 manual states 10,000 miles or 1 year. I don't expect this interval to change for 2012. Oil capacity is 6.9 quarts. I'll do a used oil analysis on the factory fill, but it will be a while.
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Here is M1 Formula M 5w-40:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_Formula_M_5W-40.aspx
Here is M1 Formula M 5w-40 ESP:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_ESP_Formula_M_5W-40.aspx
Too bad we don't know what the NOACK is for the two. For a DI engine application, I'd prefer an oil with a low NOACK. To meet the MB 229.5 spec an oil has to have NOACK no higher than 10%, so we at least know it's no higher than that.
Is this oil posted on the main M1 page anywhere? I don't see it.
Interesting this product exists at all. What exactly is the point of it considering MB works so closely with M1 to develop the 0W-40? The only cert it's got is 229.5. Unless there's a compelling reason to use it I'll take the high VI of 0W-40.
Here is M1 Formula M 5w-40:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_Formula_M_5W-40.aspx
Here is M1 Formula M 5w-40 ESP:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_ESP_Formula_M_5W-40.aspx
Too bad we don't know what the NOACK is for the two. For a DI engine application, I'd prefer an oil with a low NOACK. To meet the MB 229.5 spec an oil has to have NOACK no higher than 10%, so we at least know it's no higher than that.
Is this oil posted on the main M1 page anywhere? I don't see it.
Interesting this product exists at all. What exactly is the point of it considering MB works so closely with M1 to develop the 0W-40? The only cert it's got is 229.5. Unless there's a compelling reason to use it I'll take the high VI of 0W-40.
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
What exactly is the point of it
The point of it is that being mid-SAPs, it should at least theoretically be more DI engine friendly due to less valve deposits. Whether it actually makes a noticeable difference in real life, I don't know. Supposedly some of the ESP oils do make a difference, and this Formula M is somewhere half way between ESP and Mobil 1 0w-40.
What exactly is the point of it
The point of it is that being mid-SAPs, it should at least theoretically be more DI engine friendly due to less valve deposits. Whether it actually makes a noticeable difference in real life, I don't know. Supposedly some of the ESP oils do make a difference, and this Formula M is somewhere half way between ESP and Mobil 1 0w-40.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
What exactly is the point of it
The point of it is that being mid-SAPs, it should at least theoretically be more DI engine friendly due to less valve deposits. Whether it actually makes a noticeable difference in real life, I don't know. Supposedly some of the ESP oils do make a difference, and this Formula M is somewhere half way between ESP and Mobil 1 0w-40.
Sulfated Ash, wt% for Mobil 1 0W-40 is 1.3% vs. 0.9% for their Formula M 5W-40. Since the engine is DI; this is something to consider.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.aspx
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
What exactly is the point of it
The point of it is that being mid-SAPs, it should at least theoretically be more DI engine friendly due to less valve deposits. Whether it actually makes a noticeable difference in real life, I don't know. Supposedly some of the ESP oils do make a difference, and this Formula M is somewhere half way between ESP and Mobil 1 0w-40.
Sulfated Ash, wt% for Mobil 1 0W-40 is 1.3% vs. 0.9% for their Formula M 5W-40. Since the engine is DI; this is something to consider.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.aspx
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
What exactly is the point of it
The point of it is that being mid-SAPs, it should at least theoretically be more DI engine friendly due to less valve deposits. Whether it actually makes a noticeable difference in real life, I don't know. Supposedly some of the ESP oils do make a difference, and this Formula M is somewhere half way between ESP and Mobil 1 0w-40.
Good point. Though the guy with the A6 producing enough valve deposits every 1k miles to misfire despite cleaning by far had the best results with Mobil 1 0W-40. He also tried Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck with much worse results, and maybe also Rotella iirc. But those are diesel oils, maybe this will work better in DI gasoline engines.
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
What exactly is the point of it
The point of it is that being mid-SAPs, it should at least theoretically be more DI engine friendly due to less valve deposits. Whether it actually makes a noticeable difference in real life, I don't know. Supposedly some of the ESP oils do make a difference, and this Formula M is somewhere half way between ESP and Mobil 1 0w-40.
Good point. Though the guy with the A6 producing enough valve deposits every 1k miles to misfire despite cleaning by far had the best results with Mobil 1 0W-40. He also tried Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck with much worse results, and maybe also Rotella iirc. But those are diesel oils, maybe this will work better in DI gasoline engines.
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