Mobil 1 0W-30 AFE, 10121 miles, Toyota 3.4L 5VZFE

[jsharp]

The latest from my 2000 4Runner. This is M1 0W-30 AFE with a couple of quarts of the old version of M1R added to it.

The lead is definitely higher with AFE versus running straight M1R but I'm almost out of that oil so I can't do a complete fill of it. I'm unsure about their recommendation to run a shorter interval. It might decrease the totals but I'm doubtful it will make any difference in the ppm/mile figures.

I refilled the truck with the same mix but might try a heavier oil next time to see if that helps. I think it's obvious the engine has some bearing issue but short of a teardown I'm not sure what can be done.

As always, comments welcome!

 

[Trav]

I would be concerned about the bearings, copper is rising also so it may mean the babbitt/lead overlay is going away.
If it goes away completely the crank may get damaged.

It may be possible to swap the bearings with a pan drop without pulling the engine.
You might want to consider it if the report don't improve or worsens.

 

[jsharp]

I'm certain the engine needs to come out to pull the pan. When we did the clutch a couple months ago probably would have been a more convenient time to do it than now.

 

[INDYMAC]

Do you know if this engine is developing heavy varnish or sludge deposits? How often do you change the PCV valve?

Have you changed fuel brand or additives recently?

 

[jsharp]

I use random fuel brands and haven't used any fuel or oil additives in forever. No idea on sludge since I've never had the engine open. I'd have to check records to see when the PCV valve was changed last. I imagine it has been a while but I'm not sure how it would effect the lead reading.

The engine consumes effectively zero oil. About 1/2 qt. over a 10K mile change interval.

Here's the previous UOA's on the vehicle. Lead had been trending up for the last 60K miles.

 

[LargeCarManX2]

Originally Posted By: jsharp
I'm certain the engine needs to come out to pull the pan. When we did the clutch a couple months ago probably would have been a more convenient time to do it than now.


I personally don't think I would do this, I would run the engine and not worry about pulling it apart. My diesel engine threw lead and iron fits for years....red flags everywhere, 29 years later.....still running!

 

[jsharp]

Originally Posted By: LargeCarManX2
Originally Posted By: jsharp
I'm certain the engine needs to come out to pull the pan. When we did the clutch a couple months ago probably would have been a more convenient time to do it than now.


I personally don't think I would do this, I would run the engine and not worry about pulling it apart. My diesel engine threw lead and iron fits for years....red flags everywhere, 29 years later.....still running!


+1

I'm not going to do anything but try a heavier oil and run it. The truck has 160K miles right now. It's a secondary vehicle and I might only drive it another 20K miles.

 

[tig1]

Starting at 84K the ZDDP levels went through the roof. What oil was you using then? It couldn't have been 0-30. Maybe 5-30HM? Also the calcium is way high with this report compared to other M1 0-30.

 

[FZ1]

Maybe the motor does not like the lower viscosity of the AFE compared to the other oils you ran.

 

[jsharp]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Starting at 84K the ZDDP levels went through the roof. What oil was you using then? It couldn't have been 0-30. Maybe 5-30HM? Also the calcium is way high with this report compared to other M1 0-30.


That was the original version of Mobil 1 racing 0W-30.

 

[jsharp]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
Maybe the motor does not like the lower viscosity of the AFE compared to the other oils you ran.


Most of the previous runs were M1R, the original version of Mobil 1 racing oil with some 15W-50 mixed in to make a complete fill. That explains the higher viscosity. So it's not just the viscosity but the additive package that was vastly different.

 

[dnewton3]

I would agree with a few things here ...

a) There are certainly cautionary tales going on here. The Pb and Cu are rising; you are likely having a bearing issue developing. These are not be be ignored.
b) It's not time to pull the engine just yet; other options can be considered.


I am not infinitely familiar with this engine, so I'm not sure of how easy it is to get to the bearings. And we're not (at this point) really sure of WHICH bearings may need attention, are we? Perhaps someone could shed some light here? Do we know the construction of the bearings for the crank, con-rod, cams ? That might help narrow it down if some of those were not tri-metal.

I would suggest a few things to continue the investigation here:
1) stick to 10k miles if you can tough it out, for the sake of consistency; if you back down, don't go down lower than 8k miles. The more you back down, you change the ppm/mile because these are NOT a constant, and therefore you cannot know exact relationships. You've set many OCIs at 10k and so it'd be helpful to continue that, if possible.
2) consider getting a TAN next time, with the TBN. It would be helpful to know if acid in is play here
3) consider perhaps a different brand/grade; a swap may bring the trend back down. If it does, you know the oil was the issue; if not, then the bearings are heading south


It's not time to panic; it's time for further, more detailed investigation. There is definitely something afoot; it's up to you to do more searching.

 

[INDYMAC]

Originally Posted By: jsharp
I use random fuel brands and haven't used any fuel or oil additives in forever. No idea on sludge since I've never had the engine open. I'd have to check records to see when the PCV valve was changed last. I imagine it has been a while but I'm not sure how it would effect the lead reading.

The engine consumes effectively zero oil. About 1/2 qt. over a 10K mile change interval.

Here's the previous UOA's on the vehicle. Lead had been trending up for the last 60K miles.

OK, so you probably don't have Pb leaching from a fuel additive. You don't appear to have high fuel dilution. You don't appear to have coolant contamination.

So, let's look at what might be going on here. You've been using engine oils specified for the engine that are fully capable of lubricating bearings under normal operation and conditions. But they don't seem to be getting lubricated properly.

What could cause that? Oil pump? Varnish/sludge deposits, especially on the pick-up screen? Clogged PCV valve causing/accelerating deposit formation? Hypermiling/skip shifting causing the engine to lug along?

In my case (2000 Tundra V-8) it was inattention to the PCV valve maintenance and replacement causing deposits. I was able to take care of the problem with a couple of Auto-Rx treatments and replacing the PCV valve and grommet.

Here is some info on PCV valves:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/pcv-replace/

Make sure you buy a new grommet with a PCV valve (I recommend OEM).

The time to take action is now, before it's too late. Waiting for more trending will not fix the problem.

 

[Spector]

For years I had similar UOA readings on my son's vehicle and it just continued to run fine until he sold it years later. Soon after I gave up on UOA as, in reality, other than a coolant leak etc there is not much you can do about high wear on an engine except change the oil every 2000 miles and the results will be great. Unrealistic approach. UOA results have to be taken with a huge grain of salt and as noted, not much you can do about them except worry that you are soon to have engine failure which, in all probability,you will not.,. Just keep driving and forget the UOA, a waste of money and time IMO. Or sell the vehicle and sleep at night

 

[DuckRyder]

I am wondering aloud, but?

How old is the M1R and is it properly sealed and stored?

Perhaps try a full sump of "fresh" product?

I mention this because I had a UOA on a vehicle that sits a lot and gets very few miles put on it, and Blackstone mentioned that "we do sometimes see the oil get acidic and cause bearing wear." That shouldn't be an issue with sealed bottles, but if the seals have somehow become compromised?

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Spector
For years I had similar UOA readings on my son's vehicle and it just continued to run fine until he sold it years later. Soon after I gave up on UOA as, in reality, other than a coolant leak etc there is not much you can do about high wear on an engine except change the oil every 2000 miles and the results will be great. Unrealistic approach. UOA results have to be taken with a huge grain of salt and as noted, not much you can do about them except worry that you are soon to have engine failure which, in all probability,you will not.,. Just keep driving and forget the UOA, a waste of money and time IMO. Or sell the vehicle and sleep at night


+1. You hit the nail on the head. A few PPM in metals is meaningless. Actually, the acceptable levels for lead is 40-100PPM so all this hand ringing over PPM is without knowledge. UOAs are best suited for determining oil contamination by fuel, dirt, or coolant. A secondary purpose is TBN, but in my view that's low priority. That's why I don't do em.

 

[jsharp]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I would agree with a few things here ...

a) There are certainly cautionary tales going on here. The Pb and Cu are rising; you are likely having a bearing issue developing. These are not be be ignored.
b) It's not time to pull the engine just yet; other options can be considered.


I am not infinitely familiar with this engine, so I'm not sure of how easy it is to get to the bearings. And we're not (at this point) really sure of WHICH bearings may need attention, are we? Perhaps someone could shed some light here? Do we know the construction of the bearings for the crank, con-rod, cams ? That might help narrow it down if some of those were not tri-metal.

I would suggest a few things to continue the investigation here:
1) stick to 10k miles if you can tough it out, for the sake of consistency; if you back down, don't go down lower than 8k miles. The more you back down, you change the ppm/mile because these are NOT a constant, and therefore you cannot know exact relationships. You've set many OCIs at 10k and so it'd be helpful to continue that, if possible.
2) consider getting a TAN next time, with the TBN. It would be helpful to know if acid in is play here
3) consider perhaps a different brand/grade; a swap may bring the trend back down. If it does, you know the oil was the issue; if not, then the bearings are heading south


It's not time to panic; it's time for further, more detailed investigation. There is definitely something afoot; it's up to you to do more searching.


We're 100% in agreement. I don't intend to run any shorter intervals for the reasons you mentioned. Next sample I'll get a TAN and since I'm not familiar with what that will tell me I'll post the UOA as usual for discussion.

Unfortunately what's in the truck now is the same mix as this interval. I'll switch to a different oil next time since I really don't feel like dumping $30 worth of new oil.

I definitely not panicked here but I would like to know what's going on. Something is, I just don't know what.

Whatever the problem, one thing seems apparent - The M1R did a better job than AFE. The lead had been trending upward slightly over time but the switch to AFE made a pronounced difference.

 

[jsharp]

Originally Posted By: Spector
For years I had similar UOA readings on my son's vehicle and it just continued to run fine until he sold it years later. Soon after I gave up on UOA as, in reality, other than a coolant leak etc there is not much you can do about high wear on an engine except change the oil every 2000 miles and the results will be great. Unrealistic approach. UOA results have to be taken with a huge grain of salt and as noted, not much you can do about them except worry that you are soon to have engine failure which, in all probability,you will not.,. Just keep driving and forget the UOA, a waste of money and time IMO. Or sell the vehicle and sleep at night


As you stated, short of a spotting coolant leak early, doing a UOA with every change has been of dubious value to me on my vehicles.

But, it's interesting and I've learned some things from doing it. So it has value in that way. It's 1/2 educational and 1/2 a hobby for me. If it catches a potential problem that can be fixed then it's all good.

I don't lose any any sleep over these results. I won't be selling the truck or tearing it down because of what I see here and I wouldn't be afraid to drive it anywhere.

 

[jsharp]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC


OK, so you probably don't have Pb leaching from a fuel additive. You don't appear to have high fuel dilution. You don't appear to have coolant contamination.

So, let's look at what might be going on here. You've been using engine oils specified for the engine that are fully capable of lubricating bearings under normal operation and conditions. But they don't seem to be getting lubricated properly.

What could cause that? Oil pump? Varnish/sludge deposits, especially on the pick-up screen? Clogged PCV valve causing/accelerating deposit formation? Hypermiling/skip shifting causing the engine to lug along?

In my case (2000 Tundra V-8) it was inattention to the PCV valve maintenance and replacement causing deposits. I was able to take care of the problem with a couple of Auto-Rx treatments and replacing the PCV valve and grommet.

Here is some info on PCV valves:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/pcv-replace/

Make sure you buy a new grommet with a PCV valve (I recommend OEM).

The time to take action is now, before it's too late. Waiting for more trending will not fix the problem.


I'll pick up a PCV valve and change it since it's easy. Looking in the oil fill port I see no evidence of sludging but the valve is cheap and I can't find when I changed it last.

The insoulubles have always been low and one would think if I had some sludging that we'd see it there. But, I'm really not sure about that either.

 

[jsharp]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
I am wondering aloud, but?

How old is the M1R and is it properly sealed and stored?

Perhaps try a full sump of "fresh" product?

I mention this because I had a UOA on a vehicle that sits a lot and gets very few miles put on it, and Blackstone mentioned that "we do sometimes see the oil get acidic and cause bearing wear." That shouldn't be an issue with sealed bottles, but if the seals have somehow become compromised?


This interval only had about 1 1/2 qts of the M1R. The rest was AFE from a new 5qt bottle. I've had the M1R for a while but all the bottles are factory sealed and seem secure.